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    #31
    Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

    Hate is a waste of life, but, like what has been said several times, speaking for what is right even if it may seem distasteful to some is the correct action, I think. I also agree that silence is consent, but only to a certain level. Speak up for what is right, but be as kind as possible, but on the other hand some people are so stuck in their beliefs talking to them is just a waste. All you can do is fight or walk away- or just not engage in the conversation in the first place, but depending on the situation, this can be hard to do.

    My problem with the Christian faith is that most of the 'faithful' I have met remain ignorant, by choice, of where certain of their practices and holidays come from. Today (Easter) is a perfect example- the adoration of the Sun God, not some dude that could walk on water. Do these 'people of faith' even know why they hunt eggs (actually, I don't even know why we hunt eggs [to court a mate?], but I understand the egg represents fertility)? Their praises, songs and rituals are just occult practices yet they call the occult evil without even knowing the root of the word- or they don't care. Their priests and nuns are basically keepers of their faiths occult knowledge. The many grimoires written about commanding angels and demons, if what I have studied is correct, were written by priests and popes. Even if that were not true, we can only guess how common folk could have afforded gold, silver, among other precious metals, the tools to carve them, rare incenses and learned to write, read and incant Latin. Ignorance isn't the problem, it's the finger pointing and hatred that stems from it when their beliefs and practices are basically the same as the ones they are condemning.

    I have also seen a lot of lies and hate spread by Christian people and groups. I was banned from a YouTube channel for pointing out discrepancies in their bible. The video was about condemning and judging Wiccan's for their satanic ways (seriously, Wiccan's as satanic?). I referred to the passages where Jesus said 'Judge not lest ye be judged' and 'love thy neighbor.' I also thought that only God could judge... by judging they are breaking a cardinal rule- they are doing God's job, and from what I understand, that is blasphemy, because as humans we are below God, born in sin, thus why they worship him for salvation. They did refer me to the part of the bible that said 'thou shall rebuke darkness' and 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' but that's another discrepancy- actually a complete contradiction- love thy neighbor yet kill witches?

    The Satanic Panic is another great example of Christian lies. Most of the cults that murdered others and committed mass suicide were cults of Christ and those 'Satanists' were just troubled individuals with no real ties to the Church of Satan or Temple of Set. All over YouTube and at bookstores you see books that see words such as the Truth about Witchcraft, A Real History of Witchcraft, etc, that are just Christian propaganda to scare people away from nature by saying that the wearing of horns is a sign of the devil (in the old Jewish texts the most holy of angels and saints were said to have 'horns' of light. I think Moses or Noah were one these men). I could be wrong, but it seems like they are saying the worship of nature is evil, but how can that be? Without nature we don't have life. We become zombies filled with chemicals and breathing stale recycled air from machines.

    On a positive note, two of my best friends in high school were Catholic that went to Church every Sunday, prayed before bed, etc. They knew I was into witchcraft, Satanism and other occult practices, but we came to an agreement, I keep my practices to myself and they keep theirs to themselves unless it was on a purely intellectual level. We got along great as our beliefs were never a problem to our friendship. There is a lot of beauty in the Christian gospels and I have met a lot of lovely and down to Earth people of various Christian faiths (I always keep my beliefs to myself, though, unless they ask me directly what I believe in), I just seem to see more hatred and the spreading of lies from the majority of Christians (and Scientologists). I obviously have a lot of disagreements, but, belief is subjective and we don't have to engage in conversation with close minded individuals of any kind... well, that's not always true, but for the most part we can just walk away or talk about something mutually beneficial, like music or juice or our siblings embarrassing moments.

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      #32
      Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

      Originally posted by Chevalier View Post
      Wondering what other people will think of this. Interested to hear other views.

      A friend of mine recently informed me that as "A Pagan" I should approve of religious hatred directed at Christians.

      The friend in question is equal parts Wiccan / Agnostic / screaming (literally) Anti-theist.

      I think this is bunk, but I'm interested in what people on other paths have to say.

      It sounds like that is your friend's personal opinion that pagans should support hatred of christians. Does the friend have some kind of problem with Christians in the past?

      Comment


        #33
        Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

        DEATH TO ALL NON-SATANISTS HAR HAR HAR BURN ALL THE CHURCHES

        Lol, bad jokes aside, while christianity-bashing is quite common in pagan social circles and stuff, I don't support it in any way. Imagine a day in which christianity becomes a minority, and paganism in general a majority. If all this hatred and bashing against christians would continue, we'd end up having a pagan version of the inquisition, and it would be no different from what happened during the inquisition some centuries ago.

        Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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          #34
          Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

          Not exactly sure how it's possible to be anti theist if your friend is wiccan. If you're wiccan you can't be anti theist because they believe in a god and a goddess. There should be no religious hatred but there ends up being so. Some wiccans or other pagans sometimes will even hate Christians because of what Christians did in the past. The past is the past. It's over and done with. Of course there are fanatics and hate filled people in every religion. Religions should be tolerated unless of course the religion is calling for intolerance against others or inciting violence and hatred. Such religions should not be tolerated if their religion tells them to go out of their way to cause trouble.

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            #35
            Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

            Most of the Pagans I know are solitary, which sort of comes with a natural tendency to "live and let live." Most of the "BURN, BURN" comes from antitheists which do not fit under the Pagan umbrella as far as I'm concerned. Even Satanists, theistic and LaVeyan, are probably only smiling snidely if they care at all.

            As for most Pagans who operate under the idea of "harm none," this certainly does not follow suit. Your friend needs to get the words correct and stop painting with such a hateful brush.

            Now, I personally am only sad if there were any people inside the church and if the church rebuilds using government funds or through a heavy amount of tithing from the mourning congregation.
            No one tells the wind which way to blow.

            Comment


              #36
              Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

              personally..

              if i'm left alone I leave others alone....

              if people want to have an open discussion on faiths I am quite happy to sit for hours with a few pints and chat

              if they start being fanatical it's a different matter

              "beware of meddling in the affairs of wizards as they are subtle and quick to anger"

              Comment


                #37
                Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                I feel that much of the hatred/dislike of Christianity by Pagans & all those who fall under our loosely packed umbrella-label, is misplaced. A lot of it is just bad historical research, and a lot of it is finger-pointing holier-than-thouism. You don't see much of it any more, but back in the good ol' days, there were tons of 'Never Again the Burning Times' paraphernalia - forum banners, bumper stickers, pins, banners, flags, posters, etc. Yes, some legitimate Pagans were persecuted by the Catholics/Jesuits/Christians, but good Pagan Romans had no trouble throwing Christians to lions. The Christians destroyed groves & temples, but those groves & temples were most likely already stolen from an earlier people by various Pagan cults in between.

                No religion is lily-white, or more or less deserving of criticism than another religion. There have even been sects of Buddhist terrorists. But like any other debate, you need to apply some research, critical thinking and honesty about your own choices to your argument.
                I agree that no religion is lily-white. But I must respectfully disagree that you don't see much hatred of Pagans by Christians any more. I've lived in Tennessee, heart of the Bible Belt, for 9 yrs and I don't know one single Pagan that doesn't have a story to tell of being harassed, fired from work, having their kids in school harassed and tormented to the point of the child getting PTSD, or having their homes burned down. A few years ago, someone tried to burn down our home with us in it, yes they wanted to murder us. The next door neighbor intervened, but only because she didn't want to get charged with accessory to murder. After that, no one would do business with me. When I called a vet to come out for my sick horse, he wouldn't come out - my horse could have died and indeed, did eventually die due to not being able to get a ferrier up here to care for a wound injury on his leg. I also know firsthand of a man who wanted to marry a sheriff's daughter. THe sheriff beat him up very close to the point of death; he went to CA but the sheriff contacted law enforcement there and he was again beat almost to death. He finally had to go to England to be safe. I could go on, but I think you get my point. These stories are NOT exaggerration. Most Pagans who don't live in the south, have no idea what it's like for Pagans here. We are ALL closeted.
                I also have to disagree with this statement: "good Pagan Romans had no trouble throwing Christians to lions"
                This has proven to not be true. There is a new book out "The Myth of Christian Persecution" by Candice Moss, she completely debunks that whole myth. When I was at the coliseum in Rome, the guide told us that no Christians were fed to the lions by Pagans, and that is a heavily Catholic country. Not that guides at monuments always are correct, but still, it tells us that not even the Roman Catholics are willing to jump on that bandwagon.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Chevalier View Post
                Wondering what other people will think of this. Interested to hear other views.

                A friend of mine recently informed me that as "A Pagan" I should approve of religious hatred directed at Christians.

                The friend in question is equal parts Wiccan / Agnostic / screaming (literally) Anti-theist.

                I think this is bunk, but I'm interested in what people on other paths have to say.
                I agree that this is bunk. We do not need to be like the Christians and other religions, who hate others simply for being Pagan or some other religion. I have found (and my apologies to those who don't fit this description) that many if not most anti-theists, atheists, agnostics, materialists, are just as militant, if not more so, as the fundies of other religions. Many want to make all religion illegal and many claim that everything on earth is material, without spiritual dimension. They direct ALOT of hatred towards anyone who has a religion.
                Also, what your friend apparently forgets is that Paganism has no dogma; those are his/her beliefs, but not yours or mine or most other Pagans. I live in the Bible belt in TN with a church on every street corner just about (no exaggeration) and sometimes it seems as if hating other religions but Southern Baptist is part of their dogma. We don't have to adopt it as our belief system IMO.

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                  #38
                  Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                  The only thing I don't really like is when I am called evil, or a devil worshiper. So I guess ignorance is my only problem. Luckily my christian friends have been rather supportive. So far as answering the question of whether or not to hate on Christians; Do as thou wilt.....

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                    Originally posted by Majik13 View Post
                    Most Pagans who don't live in the south, have no idea what it's like for Pagans here. We are ALL closeted.
                    I'm from southern Illinois (not too far from KY), I went to college in rural Southern Missouri, I've been in the military, and I've been living in Virginia for most of the past 10 years...and in two decades of being Pagan, I've never been in the closet. We even put a pentacle wreath up for Yule on our door...and bumper stickers on our cars! And I've never been systematically harassed for it. But I'm also not a jerk about my religion either. Have I been discriminated against? Sure--discrimination is a human trait, and if it wasn't because someone was Pagan, it would be because of their skin color, their height, their weight, their age, their gender, their whatever...but there's a huge difference between being discriminated against and developing a persecutional complex. Haters are gonna hate--religion is just a handy excuse. I know several Pagans that claim all sorts of hardship, that from a purely less-involved and observational standpoint, generally stems from things other than their being Pagan...but of course, they blame that first because it satisfies them to do so.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #40
                      Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                      I'm from southern Illinois (not too far from KY), I went to college in rural Southern Missouri, I've been in the military, and I've been living in Virginia for most of the past 10 years...and in two decades of being Pagan, I've never been in the closet. We even put a pentacle wreath up for Yule on our door...and bumper stickers on our cars! And I've never been systematically harassed for it. But I'm also not a jerk about my religion either. Have I been discriminated against? Sure--discrimination is a human trait, and if it wasn't because someone was Pagan, it would be because of their skin color, their height, their weight, their age, their gender, their whatever...but there's a huge difference between being discriminated against and developing a persecutional complex. Haters are gonna hate--religion is just a handy excuse. I know several Pagans that claim all sorts of hardship, that from a purely less-involved and observational standpoint, generally stems from things other than their being Pagan...but of course, they blame that first because it satisfies them to do so.
                      I am glad that you've never gone through what I have here in TN. From your response, it sounds as if somehow you think I might be to blame. On the contrary, we told NO ONE when we moved here that we were Pagan except for one couple who we met and became close friends with - only to find out they were beyond treacherous. We did everything we could to put our best foot forward and never did anything to hurt or even annoy anyone else. Everyone here really liked us - until the couple decided to start some vicious rumors about us and then suddenly no one would talk to us. My mother was from the South, and I had no illusions about how people here felt about Pagans, which is why we remained quiet about it. But we were outed and there was nothing we could do. Believe me when I tell you that every single Pagan I know here is in the closet and all have horror stories to tell. People have a way of knowing that you are somehow different, especially when they don't see you in church, ever. This is a problem in the South, it isn't because I was looking for trouble or being an idiot. I'm 59 y.o., not a youngster and have some knowledge of how people can be. In the South, they call us devil-worshippers. Also, I live in a very small town of 1,400 people and it's very unsophisticated, they have no idea what Pagan really believe.
                      I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be so quick to jump on anyone who has experienced difficulties due to being Pagan. Not all of us act like jerks or deserve the hate we receive. This IS the way it is here, talk to some Southern Pagans and you will see that this is how it is. And it wasn't simple "discrimination' - this couple TRIED TO MURDER US because of our religion and they tried to incite the town to help them. That kind of thing leaves a scar. And sometimes people have horrible things done to them and never did one thing to deserve it.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                        Originally posted by Majik13 View Post
                        I am glad that you've never gone through what I have here in TN. From your response, it sounds as if somehow you think I might be to blame. On the contrary, we told NO ONE when we moved here that we were Pagan except for one couple who we met and became close friends with - only to find out they were beyond treacherous. We did everything we could to put our best foot forward and never did anything to hurt or even annoy anyone else. Everyone here really liked us - until the couple decided to start some vicious rumors about us and then suddenly no one would talk to us. My mother was from the South, and I had no illusions about how people here felt about Pagans, which is why we remained quiet about it. But we were outed and there was nothing we could do. Believe me when I tell you that every single Pagan I know here is in the closet and all have horror stories to tell. People have a way of knowing that you are somehow different, especially when they don't see you in church, ever. This is a problem in the South, it isn't because I was looking for trouble or being an idiot. I'm 59 y.o., not a youngster and have some knowledge of how people can be. In the South, they call us devil-worshippers. Also, I live in a very small town of 1,400 people and it's very unsophisticated, they have no idea what Pagan really believe.
                        I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be so quick to jump on anyone who has experienced difficulties due to being Pagan. Not all of us act like jerks or deserve the hate we receive. This IS the way it is here, talk to some Southern Pagans and you will see that this is how it is. And it wasn't simple "discrimination' - this couple TRIED TO MURDER US because of our religion and they tried to incite the town to help them. That kind of thing leaves a scar. And sometimes people have horrible things done to them and never did one thing to deserve it.

                        I actually know several pagans that live in Tennessee, including one who is openly a lesbian and lives in a small town. Though they have occasionally gotten lectured by family members, no one has tried to do anything to them.

                        Granted, I am sure there are cases of significant issues...but to be frank, I'd want to see the police report of an attempted murder before I'd take such a claim without more than a lot of salt.

                        I've been a practicing pagan since 1996, and outside of the internet, no one has really cared, other than telling me I'm risking hell -- which for a believing Christian, is a fact to them and their right to think.

                        I sometimes feel like pagans use hyperbole to make themselves feel important, because honestly nobody cares what you believe as long as you don't act like a prick.

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                          #42
                          Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                          Diversity is why we're all here, in my opinion, and that includes religious diversity. It makes the world interesting.

                          I think it's especially hypocritical for a pagan to condone hatred of another religious group. There's so much variance within paganism itself that we kind of have to be tolerant and nonjudgmental. Tolerance is the core of the religion, in my mind, and that's one of the things that drew me to it in the first place.

                          A lot about Christianity absolutely makes my blood boil, but hating that entire group of people without exception is blind prejudice. Your religious beliefs alone don't determine whether or not you're a decent person. If I hate someone, it's because of their actions.

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                            #43
                            Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                            My problem with Christianity is that it has a seriously abusive belief system. The Christian God, as described in the Bible is a complete monster and I wouldn't trust people who take the Bible literally for half a second. Having grown up in a mostly Pentechostal background I can attest that I've hardly seen a group of people so bigoted, corrupt, and downright evil. It gave me a sort of prejudice against Christians that I have been trying hard to eliminate, but can't.

                            I have nothing against Christians who are unassuming and accepting. Who don't need to take the Bible 100% to the core and still have the belief system of Yahweh, like some Catholics I've seen who openly advocate LGBT rights because they think they should be treated equally despite what the Bible says, even if it's on the monogamic way of love Christianity endorses, that I can respect, even I don't like Christian morality, those people, even different, have my support and respect in their ways.

                            At above discussions; I have been laughed at for my beliefs and once I was threatened because "You do not believe in the Lord's words!?".

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                              #44
                              Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                              Whenever people start talking about how Christians are judgmental and bigoted, I show them this video:



                              Or link them to here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fred_Rogers
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                                #45
                                Re: Paganism and Religious Tolerance.

                                *sits on floor and rocks back and forth with my dolly.

                                I luv u mr rogers.
                                Satan is my spirit animal

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