Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

[Doc_Holliday]

I have an affinity for Norse gods. Especially Odin, who happens to be the god of battle, victory, and death. The way Odin likes to operate is bringing only those who die honorably in battle to Valhalla. To drink and feast with him in his grand halls. And although I plan on joining the military, I have no guarantee I will die. Nor do I want to. In my home life I am involved with a motorcycle club. Which I feel outlaws me from most deities of "Peace" and "Justice" so I tend to gravitate towards gods of battle, tactics, and honor. Not less than a few days ago did I find myself in a pretty bad fist fight, and I suddenly began thinking of Odin. And for some reason it made me fight harder, and stronger. And I came out victorious, despite this fellow being quite a bit larger than me. I have a feeling Odin was to thank for that. A few other club members are pagans but they aren't much help in this matter.

So, to sum up the question. In your personal opinions. Do gods/goddesses understand that we, in our modern lives. Cannot always live up to the old world expectations? Canada's military is not one where every soldier "Dies in battle." so will Odin be satisfied with me just having been a soldier? Do gods forgive the fact that my home life is not always what one would consider lawful? I have so many questions.

[Clive]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

I tend to think of the Gods as...I don't want to say archetypes, that's not exactly how I feel. In any case, I think they grow and evolve with us. Times change, people change. If the gods didn't change nobody would still be worshiping them. I would think that a god would have enough wisdom to realize that people and societies change. It's somewhat like it would be to be an immortal - I doubt that someone who had been alive since, say, Colonial times would still be wearing powdered wigs and rouge.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

I see no reason why the human way of life 1000 years ago should be the only way to interact with the Gods. I believe the Gods have always existed in some form. Thus, they existed even in pre-Agricultural times- which were quite different from, say, the Viking Era. So yes, I think the Gods have changed with times, and may well continue to do so.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

Yes, gods change with the times. Otherwise they would be moribund. But don't forget that Odin is not ONLY a god of battle. He has other attributes too : cunning and wisdom being just two of these. So don't be afraid to explore these other aspects... and don't be surprised if, along the way, other deities come into your life to add to the guidance you're receiving.

[nbdy]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

God, gods, energy, whatever metaphor works for you -- these do not exist in time as we do. We walk the surface of the orb, but the source is at the center with equal access to any place/time. At the center there is no time or place, so a conversation with you and a person living 3000 years ago is all the same, simultaneous and forever. So it seems to me.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

Thank you for your help everybody. You guys are a great wealth of knowledge

[Aeran]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

I don't think of them as changing so much as timeless. Our understanding of them might change, but the basic forces they represent are present and relevant no matter where you are in history.

[thalassa]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

I think that what the gods represent (as someone else mentioned), what they embody, is timeless. I think how we interpret the gods and their desires is based in our individual and cultural understandings of them. A god that expected the same minutiae from its followers 1000 or 2000 or 10000 years later isn't worthy of being worshiped, IMO.

[Wednesday]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

So, to sum up the question. In your personal opinions. Do gods/goddesses understand that we, in our modern lives. Cannot always live up to the old world expectations?

The gods rule over the living world. Thor controls and battles the giants of weather so that Midgard isn't a hell-hole of chaotic tornados and hurricanes unchecked. Odin decides victory and death so battles don't go on forever in unchecked destruction. We just happen to live on this earth they manage and we make our own rules and laws. We decide why we fight, not them. We decide who we befriend or betray. They keep the consequences of it all in order and balance. There aren't any old world expectations. There just is what there is.

I mean, they probably don't care if your not training to fight with a double axe and pillaging villages for honor. More than anything they just don't want you upsetting the order of things and giving them more work. If you're mindful of that, then you're good. (Why would a god want a chaotic timebomb in his Valhalla army, right?)

Canada's military is not one where every soldier "Dies in battle." so will Odin be satisfied with me just having been a soldier? Do gods forgive the fact that my home life is not always what one would consider lawful? I have so many questions.

But honestly, Valhalla and Hel are probably a Christian invention. The best way to know if the gods are pleased with you is if you have luck. You won the fight so thats a good indicator that things were in your favor. If your life is a mess and nothing goes right then you might want to reconsider what you're doing.

[Dez]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

I liked what Wednesday had to say...read up on Snurri and issues with how long after Christianity most of our things were written down...it's more then a bit like our only records of what was going on in America in 1776 being some bloke from right now.

I don't normally work with Odin, but my increasingly atheist spouse has(obviously, complicated). To plug Odin as *just* a warrior doesn't do him service. Learn more about him, about his role as a being of wit and memory, his ties to seidr. Out of anyone I've dealt with(in a limited experience compared to many on here), he is one who seems to not just exist but thrive in the modern world.

I think people make a mistake when they treat the past as crystalline. Time is always changing. Odin came to the front during the Viking era, when there's quite a bit of evidence(place-names, etc.) that before that in many locations Tyr, Freyr and Freya, etc, had more attention. He was what was needed at the time. It's entirely possible for ideas, values, and what is needed to change dramatically in a few hundred years, much less the thousand years before Snorri wrote a few things down.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

Thank you wednesday and Dez. You are both very wise. I know Odin is not just a viking warrior, I know hes also a wise man, and an incredible knowledge seeker. Giving up an eye for knowledge shows something about a god. I think him and I have something going, I know you said not to worry about offerings yet Dez. But I did in fact make an offering of Chocolate and Mead. And Something felt right about it, in fact. After waiting for a while, (I was doing this outside.) everything around me went quiet and I felt peaceful, like it was something from Odin, saying thank you. By this I mean the crows stopped gawking, cars seemed to stop making sounds, the wind completely halted and it felt like time froze. I took it as a good sign. I dont have an altar or anything really so for now the outside is where I do my "Work". Whenever I do something involving Odin I feel a great energy well up inside me. Like its meant to be, something just clicks in. I'm glad to have found a God that I feel a connection to. I'm going to spend a while doing some critical reading on him.

Wednesday, I don't understand how Valhalla could be a Christian invention. I thought the story was warriors who died honorably in battle would be carried to Valhalla to feast and dine every night in Odin's halls. I just dont see how Christians could benefit from creating such a tale. But I could be wrong.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

Alot of whats storied and repeated was written down and told long after some of the original myth and lore came to be. There are things that many people consider fact now that can be debated as being as old as we think it is. Wednesday is much more learned than I about this particular subject, but there is in fact a whole big scholarly debate as to whether things that are widely touted as period "fact" are really as period as we think it is...

[Wednesday]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

The Valhalla/Heaven-Hel/Hell construct is Christian. There was (and is) a belief in an eternal battle, and an after life hall with beer and ancestors. In one example of the Gesta Danorum, Haddingus is preparing to fight when an old woman arrives to show him where he'll go. She wraps him in a cloak, they pass through a mist, and arrive in the Otherworld. First they're on a road in a field of herbs. Next they cross a bridge over a river of shields and weapons and enter a field of warriors (Valhalla-esque). Finally, they arrive at a tall impassable wall. The old woman breaks a rooster's neck and throws it over. As the bird crosses over it revives, crows, and flies off into the sky behind the wall.

In Northern Europe there are a lot of Kings in Mountains; meaning legend/belief has it that they died, passed over into the mountains and spend the days in the halls there eating, drinking and fighting until the day they're needed for battle again.

Those are just a couple of examples.

Odin's Valkyrie were probably an answer for those that died away from home: How would the dead find their way home? How would they join their ancestors? Carrion birds. They pick at the flesh of the corpses and carry them back.

Odin also can't rule the afterlife because its been demonstrated that he has to ask help from the dead. Also, the gods are living. Baldr dying is a big deal because he no longer has an affect on the world. He's removed from it. Dead and gone. Odin can't reside in the afterlife Valhalla and here on earth. But Odin does have a hall and the dead still roam the earth (gathered at the wild hunt) and the dead deal with the living world and so Odin can still have contact with them.

Making Valhalla and Hel into heaven and hell was an effort to reconcile the mythology with euhemeristic explanations of the gods. It was also a way (then) to legitimise the old beliefs. A, "We had some of it wrong but God's hand in the beliefs was still evident,“ type thing.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

Making Valhalla and Hel into heaven and hell was an effort to reconcile the mythology with euhemeristic explanations of the gods. It was also a way (then) to legitimise the old beliefs. A, "We had some of it wrong but God's hand in the beliefs was still evident,“ type thing.

This happens a great deal, as you say. It was as though the early Church tried to mangle time in order to 'prove' that their version of events was correct even before anyone had ever heard about them!

And I was particularly interested in the synchronicity of your comment about the King of the Mists tradition since at the moment I'm editing a book that makes reference to this in a Welsh context. Here in Wales we have a tradition of the Brenin Llwyd or King of the Mists who lurks up in the mountains.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Do the gods bend to our modern ways?

Wednesday, what are some good books for Norse mythology? Most I read up on include Valhalla.