Defining "Pagan"

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Defining Paganism

The issue I see with this is that most people are familiar only with the Big 5 religions - Judaism, Muslim, Christianity, Hinduism & Buddhism. Some have the Big 6 by adding Catholicism. If I talked to all but a select few of my co-workers (those 2 out of an immediate 90 who are openly Pagan... gee, we're 3% Pagan!), I would get doe-in-the-headlight stares if I started talking about Gerald Gardner & the Freemasons. I get doe-in-the-headlights stares when I talk about Greek/Roman/African Gods, mythology & folklore too. One time I told a co-worker that "I worship many Gods". She responded, "Mini-God? What is that, some kind of fun-sized God?" When I broke it down to "I worship more than one God", her response was "There's only one God that I know of" and most of the people in the room agreed with her. The concept of 'other' Gods made no sense to them (and no one even mentioned JHVH or Allah). I wasn't certain which God she was thinking of, because for all I knew she was Jewish but I had to go under the assumption that she was Christian.

Debating the definition of Paganism or neo-Paganism on a forum, where people who are educated, literate, & know how to find references that aren't on wikipedia is a heck of a lot different than trying to define Paganism to the average American. It's easier for people to wrap their head around "I'm not Christian/Catholic/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu or Buddhist. I worship Gods from many ancient cultures and occasionally practice magic. I am only one Pagan, though - Paganism is an umbrella term for many faiths that are not Christian/Catholic/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu or Buddhist - and there are thousands of us" than it is to break it down to individual Pagan paths as they are practiced today. Most people don't really want to get into that much detail, and if they do, they'll ask. If they don't, they usually say, "oh" and wander off, or accuse you of being a devil-worshiping hoodoo woman/man & start throwing Bibles at you.

There is a point where we're not responsible for others' ignorance. To say "We're not with the big 5" outside of those who understand is one thing. To base our definition of ourselves on such? Its a very different matter.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Defining Paganism

I don't presume to "lay claim" to any tradition but my own, but I do see that many other traditions are not as starkly opposed and alien to mine as Christianity. To call them all pagan is a simplification, to be sure, but a reasonable one to make when we"re surrounded by adherents of Abrahamic religion. Not to mention the fact that pagans of all kinds do frequently speak and associate with one another, so there is a sort of community. With a community comes a sense of shared identity.

Granted, there probably are better, more descriptive words I could use if I really wanted to explain to someone what I was. "Polytheist" would be a word with more substance and meaning, and there"s a reason the word is found beneath my avatar picture instead of "pagan."

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Defining Paganism

As the Neopagan Movement is the only group of people who bother to define or use this archaic word, and those in the Neopagan movement use it to refer to the movement itself, we should codify the definition accordingly.

Why not build that community on what it IS rather than what it is not?

If Christianity is so opposed and alien to your own faith, why bother to relate your faith to theirs at all? Don't feed me that same line of "dominant culture" bs, and concurrently speak about a Neopagan community. The in-group/out-group dynamic may be powerful, but that goes away when your group finds mainstream acceptance and respect. Buddhists generally don't have to join this subculture of ours to find acceptance. What's left to tie this pagan community together after that dynamic is gone?

That's what I believe should define Paganism. What are we?

Polytheistic? Maybe, but that's not exclusive to our movement, that doesn't describe it fully, nor does it describe all of us.

And if you can't answer that, I'm going to call this the FAD that you demonstrate it to be. Even Satanism is about more than "Not Being Christian".

[Ophidia]

Re: Defining Paganism

To base our definition of ourselves on such? Its a very different matter.

Trying to define Paganism in a room full of Pagans is like nailing Jell-O to a wall. We're all so individualistic about our paths that the minute one person tries to describe the 'Pagan movement' or 'Neo-Pagan movement' in generalized terms, it starts fights. Even if you do use 'not one of the Big 5/6', a Christo-Wiccan or Judeo-Pagan butts in & says, "well, that's not my type of Paganism". If you talk about 'earth-centered', you've got urban people like me who hide from nature in big cities. If you talk about being polytheistic, you end up w/someone from the cult of Aten...

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Defining Paganism

Trying to define Paganism in a room full of Pagans is like nailing Jell-O to a wall. We're all so individualistic about our paths that the minute one person tries to describe the 'Pagan movement' or 'Neo-Pagan movement' in generalized terms, it starts fights. Even if you do use 'not one of the Big 5/6', a Christo-Wiccan or Judeo-Pagan butts in & says, "well, that's not my type of Paganism". If you talk about 'earth-centered', you've got urban people like me who hide from nature in big cities. If you talk about being polytheistic, you end up w/someone from the cult of Aten...

Rather, looking at the paths which are included in the movement, we might want to enumerate that it is a collection of attempted revivals of ancient European & Mediterranean Traditions, and/or a continuation of Western Occult Esotericism.

So... who isn't covered in this one?

[Ophidia]

Re: Defining Paganism

Rather, looking at the paths which are included in the movement, we might want to enumerate that it is a collection of attempted revivals of ancient European & Mediterranean Traditions, and/or a continuation of Western Occult Esotericism.

So... who isn't covered in this one?

So, which are you including neo-indigenous/shamanic, islandic, South American, African & Asian Paganism/neo-Paganism in - European or Mediterranean? Because people from those branches probably don't consider themselves part of the 'western occult esotericism' club, and there are plenty of those who don't fall under non-Pagan/neo-Pagan religions. I mean, if you really want to get nit-picky...

[MaskedOne]

Re: Defining Paganism

Paganism: halfway meaningless umbrella term used to unify a horde of different belief structures that don't always have much in common

[Gobae]

Re: Defining Paganism

Paganism: halfway meaningless umbrella term used to unify a horde of different belief structures that don't always have much in common

Perfect! Well said and succinct.

[Dez]

Re: Defining Paganism

So... who isn't covered in this one?

Just gotta comment on this one, Azazel: We actually have a recent new member who worships the ancient Meso-American gods. He's started a very informative thread...

Once again, jello/wall

[Valhalla]

Re: Defining Paganism

The fact is that "Pagan" is a word driving from the Latin "Pagano" (think I have that right) meaning "country." The ancient church used this word because people living in villages away from major cities were the last to be converted, and often reverted to their "Pagan" practices as soon as the missionaries left. All it meant was someone practicing native, local religion instead of Christianity. Trying to build it into a fancy term nowadays with this "if you feel Pagan you're Pagan" business is so difficult because it has no historical linguistic basis. The word is so hard to define because the church invented it, and the church has never been known for being coherent.

Personally, I don't feel any need to placate a person's feelings. Everyone takes the term "Pagan" to mean someone who practices a religion, usually polytheistic, other than Christianity/Judaism/Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism (all the major/known religions in other words) etc., usually a native ethnic religion. For an atheist to say "I'm Pagan because I feel in tune with the Earth" would be silly. Just employ a modicum of common sense when using the word and it will come out fine.

-Valhalla

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Defining Paganism

For an atheist to say "I'm Pagan because I feel in tune with the Earth" would be silly. Just employ a modicum of common sense when using the word and it will come out fine.

-Valhalla

I am an atheist.

I feel that I am in tune with the Earth.

I say "I am pagan."

Please explain why it is silly for me to do that.






(possibly you've never met a pantheist before?)

[Dez]

Re: Defining Paganism

I see another potential issue with that, Vahalla.

True, it used to be that gods were heavily tied to location(in some cases far more literally then what you're saying, even...Shitno is an excellent example). However, most of us no longer live in the lands of our ancestors. If we were to follow the gods that belong to this land, they would be Native American.

We are mutts as well, so which gods?

Chances are, it's probably never been as clean-cut as people try to make it. Just look at the way Norse wandered all the way to Russia and Constantinople as merchants or raiders, interbreeding, borowing practices, and taking slaves with different beliefs back home with them.

[Luke_Ironside]

Re: Defining Paganism

For an atheist to say "I'm Pagan because I feel in tune with the Earth" would be silly.
-Valhalla

I know plenty of atheists who also define themselves as pagan. They often view the gods as aspects of the self rather than literal entities, usually drawing from Jungian concepts.

Have you never heard of naturalistic pantheism?

Here's some links you may find interesting:

http://www.spiralgoddess.com/SecularPaganism.html

http://blog.beliefnet.com/apagansblog/2010/06/initial-speculations-on-pagan-atheism.html

http://skeptophile.com/blog/?p=39

---------- Post added at 12:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

Also, here is another interesting link on non-theistic paganism:

http://www.pantheism.net/pagan.htm?gclid=CM7_meeQ-60CFQYdpAodCEq8NA

[Valhalla]

Re: Defining Paganism

I am an atheist.

I feel that I am in tune with the Earth.

I say "I am pagan."

Please explain why it is silly for me to do that.






(possibly you've never met a pantheist before?)

Please understand I'm not trying to belittle you here or anything. If you're a pantheist, doesn't that mean you view the universe as deity? So in a sense you do believe in a higher power, no? If you believe there is no higher power then I find it a little silly to use the term "Pagan" to describe yourself personally, but I'm not trying to insult you or begrudge you the right to do so. It just doesn't make sense *to me*.

Please don't take offense, it's very hard to convey exact feelings in text.

@Dez: By "local religion" I was speaking in a historical context. I live in Vinland/USA, so Asatru is not really a "local" religion, but it is *A* local religion because it is an ethnic religion from ancient Europe, so it would be Pagan. Native American sky-spirit religion would be a "local" religion too, a native religion maybe better to phrase that.

@Luke: See, that's just an historically inaccurate use of the word "Paganism." I'm not trying to insult anyone who calls themselves Pagan because they see gods as aspects of the self, and indeed, I can see where it would be considered an appropriate word for such. All I'm saying is what the historical use of the word is. Everyone's welcome to call themselves whatever they want.

*crosses fingers that no one takes offense because someone always does whenever I open my mouth, because text communication sucks*

-Valhalla

[MaskedOne]

Re: Defining Paganism

I am an atheist.

I feel that I am in tune with the Earth.

I say "I am pagan."

Please explain why it is silly for me to do that.






(possibly you've never met a pantheist before?)

While I won't call it silly and I'm guilty of doing much worse quite deliberately, you are using a descriptor that fails to actually describe anything. Granted I can say that about all Pagans. The fact that I can use the exact definition of Pagan that I posted earlier and get agreement from various people means (to me at least) that people are using the term to cover way too many belief systems. I'd like to see the definition shrink to something more manageable eventually and some of the groups that fall within the Pagan umbrella establish an independent name and identity for themselves. With that said, I'm in no rush on the issue and am unlikely to start any great campaigns over it. I'm quite happy to use my standing definition of the term for many years to come.