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Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

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    Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

    There's a post on r/occult (reddit) that asks about what kind of paths people follow. I answered with 'atheist pagan' and somebody said something that kinda bothered me.

    Do you equate being an atheist pagan (or secular humanist, or naturalist pagan, or humanist pagan) to be 'just a witch'? I was a little offended by the remark, which suggested it was just easier to call myself a witch, but I disagree.

    Because I'm not a witch.

    What do you think?


    Mostly art.

    #2
    Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

    If you only work magic, I would say you are a witch, but if you do not work magic, or it is not your main practice, than atheist pagan is what you are if that is how you define yourself. Then again, even if you do practice magic and don't consider yourself a witch, than, simply, you are not a witch and that responder is rather presumptuous. Not to mention that pagan and witch, and even atheist, are such widespread terms with several different meanings to the individuals who claim those titles. Hell, I've been talking to an atheist magician/occultist and psionist on another forum that doesn't believe in energy bodies and that sort of thing... I didn't think that was possible!

    Long story short, you are what you are and what you define yourself as through your own beliefs and practices. That's what I think.

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      #3
      Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

      Hell, I'm a Shamanic pagan; I do some energy work and I don't call myself a witch. I *personally* think that the term witch applies to certain specific groups. Pagan of any sort does not automatically equal "witch" in my book. Especially Atheist Pagan. I'd consider the source/group and take it with a Grain of salt. I tried to communicate with the "pagan" people on Gaia Online once. Once. Big mistake. Reddit, albeit a different demographic, ranks up there among troll haven and I wouldn't go there myself looking for meaningful discussion. But I'm also very biased. I like PF over any other place. :P
      �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
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        #4
        Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

        No.
        I've dealt with spellcasters that don't acknowledge gods and don't take up the title witch and I've met atheists that adopt elements of pagan philosophy withput much in the way of craftwork.Combining both of those groups and several more theistic groups under the single banner of witch doesn't seem useful to me.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

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        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

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        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

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          #5
          Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

          Yeah, okay. See, that's what I thought too, but I wasn't sure if I was the only person who had that view point. The argument brought up was that I was 'misleading' people by saying I was pagan because it automatically implies polytheism, and therefore, atheist paganism is an oxymoron.

          I thought the dude was an oxy-moron, personally, but I thought I'd have a double-check just in case I was the one in the wrong. Heaven forbid a pagan use the wrong terminology!

          Originally posted by Juniper View Post
          Hell, I'm a Shamanic pagan; I do some energy work and I don't call myself a witch. I *personally* think that the term witch applies to certain specific groups. Pagan of any sort does not automatically equal "witch" in my book. Especially Atheist Pagan. I'd consider the source/group and take it with a Grain of salt. I tried to communicate with the "pagan" people on Gaia Online once. Once. Big mistake. Reddit, albeit a different demographic, ranks up there among troll haven and I wouldn't go there myself looking for meaningful discussion. But I'm also very biased. I like PF over any other place. :P
          I agree. I'm not on the pagan subreddits for their meaningful discussion. I usually just comment once in a while to help a fellow out. PF is the only pagan forum for meeeee!


          Mostly art.

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            #6
            Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

            Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
            Yeah, okay. See, that's what I thought too, but I wasn't sure if I was the only person who had that view point. The argument brought up was that I was 'misleading' people by saying I was pagan because it automatically implies polytheism, and therefore, atheist paganism is an oxymoron.

            I thought the dude was an oxy-moron, personally, but I thought I'd have a double-check just in case I was the one in the wrong. Heaven forbid a pagan use the wrong terminology!
            Oxymoron always reminds me of Renaissance Man.



            Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
            I agree. I'm not on the pagan subreddits for their meaningful discussion. I usually just comment once in a while to help a fellow out. PF is the only pagan forum for meeeee!
            Woot woot!!!
            �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
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            Sneak Attack
            Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

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              #7
              Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

              Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you define yourself as an 'atheistic pagan'? It sounds to me like you mean that you follow the ideals/interests/lifestyles that would generally be considered pagan, but don't believe the deities involved? Or possibly believe, but don't worship them?

              As for the 'witch' thing, I don't think it fits at all. To me, the label of Witch isn't a spiritual or cultural one, but a title designated to those who's magical or other occult practices conforms to a particular category.

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                #8
                Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                Atheist pagan most certainly does not mean "witch". If you practice some form of magick, you are a witch, and I certainly don't see that as fundamental to being an atheistic pagan. Whoever said that probably didn't know what they were talking about.

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                  #9
                  Nope, a witch is someone that practices witchcraft and self-identifies as a witch. There most certainly is a subset of Paganism that is atheistic, humanistic, naturalistic, etc.

                  Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                  Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you define yourself as an 'atheistic pagan'? It sounds to me like you mean that you follow the ideals/interests/lifestyles that would generally be considered pagan, but don't believe the deities involved? Or possibly believe, but don't worship them?
                  Not speaking for V here, but for a number of people, this would be an accurate summary.
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                    #10
                    Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                    I have never heard of an atheist pagan, so I wouldn't have called you a witch, if it's any comfort. I would have just said, "huh? how can you be an atheist pagan?"

                    It only makes sense to me if you're "pagan" in the sense of "not of the abrahamic religions".

                    I'm sure it might make sense to me if explained, but my first reaction would be "huh?" not "omg, ur a witch and you better call yourself one!" lol.

                    I don't know how it's anyone else's business what you call yourself, though.

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                      #11
                      Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                      Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post
                      I don't know how it's anyone else's business what you call yourself, though.
                      ^^What she said.
                      http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                      But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                      ~Jim Butcher

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                        #12
                        Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                        Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you define yourself as an 'atheistic pagan'? It sounds to me like you mean that you follow the ideals/interests/lifestyles that would generally be considered pagan, but don't believe the deities involved? Or possibly believe, but don't worship them?

                        As for the 'witch' thing, I don't think it fits at all. To me, the label of Witch isn't a spiritual or cultural one, but a title designated to those who's magical or other occult practices conforms to a particular category.
                        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                        Nope, a witch is someone that practices witchcraft and self-identifies as a witch. There most certainly is a subset of Paganism that is atheistic, humanistic, naturalistic, etc.



                        Not speaking for V here, but for a number of people, this would be an accurate summary.
                        Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post
                        I have never heard of an atheist pagan, so I wouldn't have called you a witch, if it's any comfort. I would have just said, "huh? how can you be an atheist pagan?"

                        It only makes sense to me if you're "pagan" in the sense of "not of the abrahamic religions".

                        I'm sure it might make sense to me if explained, but my first reaction would be "huh?" not "omg, ur a witch and you better call yourself one!" lol.

                        I don't know how it's anyone else's business what you call yourself, though.
                        Thal's link is mostly correct, though I don't think I would have worded it in those terms (btw, I totally follow that blog too!)

                        To be honest, I don't consider myself anything. I don't even think about it. A label is a silly thing, but when someone asks me "What's your religion, what's your path?" I can't very well not have an answer for them. So I did think about it. And atheist pagan is as close as I can come to explaining myself in two words.

                        Basically, without going into large amounts of detail: I forage for herbs. I make tinctures and tisanes, and I make my own beeswax candles. I celebrate the seasons, and I celebrate the cycles of the moon (when I remember). I'm fond of candle magic, I will admit, but I don't think I actually believe in magic. I really like the part of that site that explains that magic and ritual are just tools to aid us psychologically. Makes magic less, well, magical, but I think it's closer to the truth. Until science can prove me wrong, I don't really believe in something that doesn't have mass or matter. I use runes, and tarot, and crystals, and incense, and I like to have shrines around the house.

                        But no. I don't worship deity. I don't have a lord and lady, or a pantheon, or any of that business (but if you do, that's great, and I envy your ability to believe in that) ...I work with the gods, a bit, but only as aspects of the natural world. I'm rather fond of Artemis, for example, because I'm a hunter and an archer myself. I'm not that fond of Dionysus, but I can't seem to escape seeing symbolism for him wherever I go. I respect Poseidon, because I love the sea. But I don't think they are real, and I don't think they made us. I do think that the myths serve a purpose, in teaching us morals (or perhaps teaching us what NOT to do) ...and yeah, there's other pantheons out there, but I used the Greeks because I know the most about them.

                        Does that answer the question?


                        Mostly art.

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                          #13
                          Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                          Well, you just sound like a naturalist to me. And an atheist. But I'd call you whatever you want to be called.

                          To me, paganism includes some sort of acceptance of deity, be it faith in deities/ a deity and under-deities, or simply faith that they exist without any personal attachment or veneration/worship/etc.

                          However, part of the problem that we run into in trying to decide and ascribe labels is that language is so imprecise and limited; not forgetting the fact that the word 'pagan' has the further complication of having the baggage of being 'not-something' rather than being exclusively used as its own descriptor.

                          So, my point is that I would be mostly offended by someone trying to tell you that "you have to use this word because I think you fit there" than anything else. Whatever word he or she tried to shove onto you is less offensive than them trying to shove a word onto you. Even if you didn't reject it outright, it ignores the fact that language itself is imprecise and there is no ultimate, deciding factor in how 'pagan' (or 'witch') is used by all people who speak English.

                          I think that finding gods interesting but unreal would make you definitely an atheist. A high degree of interest in nature and herbcrafting and hunting would make you a woodswoman or a naturalist. Accepting psychological power in ritual doesn't make you a believer in magic, so I wouldn't personally feel any need to utilize that in 'labeling' you. But that would be MY label for you, not yours, and I would thus never insist on calling you anything that you reject.

                          I find it offensive when any person of any belief (or unbelief) tries to tell me what label I must accept, especially since none really fit me well. And there's no established label for what you are, either. And if you know that 'witch' doesn't fit you, then you know yourself best and the person pushing you to accept it was being highly disrespectful.

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                            #14
                            Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                            Well I describe myself as a pagan witch because my religious beliefs are (broadly speaking) pagan and I am a witch (i.e. I practise witchcraft.)

                            And the next time some know-all tries to pull you apart on this, kindly tell them that the correct response is: 'An atheistic pagan, eh? Tell me more....'
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                              #15
                              Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                              Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post

                              To me, paganism includes some sort of acceptance of deity, be it faith in deities/ a deity and under-deities, or simply faith that they exist without any personal attachment or veneration/worship/etc.
                              I think that you might find the number of people that are atheists, naturalists, humanists, agnostics, etc and still consider themselves to be Pagan of one stripe or another to be somewhat surprising.

                              ...Or, in my case, I fin the actual be-ing (or not) of deity to be largely irrelevant. TBH, I don't think the reality of or faith in deity to be relevant to my practice or beliefs, and functionally I'm polytheistic (in practice)...though I would describe my belief to be closer in nature to a somewhat ambivalent fence-sitting pantheist that worships deities as representatives of Nature, and my bioregion as a deity in and of itself. If I had to enter a discussion on the matter, I tend to lean in the direction of gods being historical and culturally relevant thought forms that are creations of man, based on actual natural forces and ideas and powers of the universe.

                              Funnily enough, this subject sort of came up on a blog I follow, and I ended up blogging on it tonight.
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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