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    #16
    Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

    I am really enjoying this discussion. Especially since, of late, the best way I could probably describe myself, were I forced to label it, would be agnostic pagan.

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      #17
      Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      a somewhat ambivalent fence-sitting pantheist that worships deities as representatives of Nature I tend to lean in the direction of gods being historical and culturally relevant thought forms that are creations of man, based on actual natural forces and ideas and powers of the universe.
      Totally off-topic, I know, but can I just say that I love that phrasing? Just love it...
      But I have apparently plussed you too recently... and cannot do it again.
      http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

      But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
      ~Jim Butcher

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
        I think that you might find the number of people that are atheists, naturalists, humanists, agnostics, etc and still consider themselves to be Pagan of one stripe or another to be somewhat surprising.

        ...Or, in my case, I fin the actual be-ing (or not) of deity to be largely irrelevant. TBH, I don't think the reality of or faith in deity to be relevant to my practice or beliefs, and functionally I'm polytheistic (in practice)...though I would describe my belief to be closer in nature to a somewhat ambivalent fence-sitting pantheist that worships deities as representatives of Nature, and my bioregion as a deity in and of itself. If I had to enter a discussion on the matter, I tend to lean in the direction of gods being historical and culturally relevant thought forms that are creations of man, based on actual natural forces and ideas and powers of the universe.

        Funnily enough, this subject sort of came up on a blog I follow, and I ended up blogging on it tonight.
        Except that to me, it sounds more like you're agnostic, not atheist. A pantheist acknowledges a divine factor; be it specific deity or nonspecific. If it were me saying "yes you sound pagan to me" or "no, you don't sound pagan to me"; any agnostic could say, "I am pagan" and make sense to me.

        For me, a person who says "I am an atheist" means "I do not believe in any divine factor whatsoever." A person who says, "I am agnostic" means, "I think there is probably some kind of divine factor, but I don't really know how to describe it and am not sure what form it may (or may not) take."

        You sound to me like you acknowledge some sort of divine factor (or deity).

        An atheist pretty much says the opposite, there is no divine factor, and if there is any 'higher power', it's only that we are subject to the laws of physics, basically. And that there is nothing unknowable about it (even if there is some that is unknown).

        While, unless I misunderstand, you seem to give a sort of divinity to nature itself. Whatever "gods or deities" you might acknowledge as social constructs, there seems that you have an underlying sense of something unknowable and divine within nature.

        Again, however, language is so imprecise, particularly in the realm of the 'esoteric'. I could be entirely misunderstanding both you can volcan.

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          #19
          Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

          Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post

          An atheist pretty much says the opposite, there is no divine factor, and if there is any 'higher power', it's only that we are subject to the laws of physics, basically. And that there is nothing unknowable about it (even if there is some that is unknown).

          While, unless I misunderstand, you seem to give a sort of divinity to nature itself. Whatever "gods or deities" you might acknowledge as social constructs, there seems that you have an underlying sense of something unknowable and divine within nature.
          I think something can still be divine, without being deity. While acknowledging the gods as useful tools, and as social constructs, and as personifications of nature, does not, I think, make them divine.

          I can see the point you're trying to make towards agnosticism, and to be honest, I probably float somewhere between atheism and agnosticism. I don't believe in the gods as deity, but I want to. I envy those of you who do. But I can't. And I can't because they didn't create us. We created them, we invented them, and we made them from our natural world. A vision can be described psychologically, magic be brought down to its basest roots by philosophy, and math and physics are the gods of our universe. Science doesn't have to make our experience less, though.

          Which is why deity isn't important, which is how pagans end up atheist in the first place.

          ...also, it's early in the morning still, and I think I got off track from what I was saying in the first place. I really just wanted to make the distinction between divinity and deity. I think the tree outside my house is divine, and the rain is divine, and fire is divine, and the rocks and the soil and the sea are divine. I worship all those things. (I worship rocks? This is funny to me as a geologist) ...but the sea is not a goddess, fire is not a god, and I am not a theist.


          Mostly art.

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            #20
            Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

            Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
            I think something can still be divine, without being deity. While acknowledging the gods as useful tools, and as social constructs, and as personifications of nature, does not, I think, make them divine.

            I can see the point you're trying to make towards agnosticism, and to be honest, I probably float somewhere between atheism and agnosticism. I don't believe in the gods as deity, but I want to. I envy those of you who do. But I can't. And I can't because they didn't create us. We created them, we invented them, and we made them from our natural world. A vision can be described psychologically, magic be brought down to its basest roots by philosophy, and math and physics are the gods of our universe. Science doesn't have to make our experience less, though.

            Which is why deity isn't important, which is how pagans end up atheist in the first place.

            ...also, it's early in the morning still, and I think I got off track from what I was saying in the first place. I really just wanted to make the distinction between divinity and deity. I think the tree outside my house is divine, and the rain is divine, and fire is divine, and the rocks and the soil and the sea are divine. I worship all those things. (I worship rocks? This is funny to me as a geologist) ...but the sea is not a goddess, fire is not a god, and I am not a theist.
            I think this is again where language issues come in, and how/why we need to be careful to allow people to create and choose their OWN "labels".

            I should have used the word "divine" to begin with, rather than "deity" when I said atheists refuse the concept of deity. I meant deity as an encompassing word, taking in both 'that which is divine' and 'that which embodies the divine in some form of avatar'.

            I think that an atheist doesn't accept the entire concept of divinity--whether embodied by a being or whether in a pantheistic way.

            I would see you as more of a pantheist, because you accept the concept of there being something or some things which are divine. During my stint as an atheist, the more I studied it, the more I realized that I was not really an atheist, because I could not deny what I might call "the divine factor".

            However, I doubt that I'm really a pantheist, either... because I see the Divine Factor as something that is self-aware and intelligent in its own right... and I do feel that it has been, and can be, personified IN PART within "deities" of various kinds... but that these "fragments of the divine" are worthy of what you might call 'veneration', but not 'worship'.

            It is very frustrating to have these sorts of conversation with such a limited language, however.

            Again, although I might see you as either agnostic or pantheistic, I would call you what you most identify with on a personal level. If I were trying to describe you to others, I'd feel compelled to attempt to explain more completely; not because I feel that your choice is incorrect, but more because I feel that language is so limited that trying to stick you into two words is unrealistic.

            Lately, I've been meeting more and more people whose general set of spiritual views do not fit into any "established norm". As such, I think we must all begin to attempt to understand people's choices of their labels, rather than trying to understand the person through their chosen label. If that makes sense. I recognize that it's a fine distinction, but I think it's a profound one.

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              #21
              Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

              Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
              and I am not a theist.
              Nope you are an athiest.... sorry had to do that.... now back to your regularly scheduled forum....
              http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

              But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
              ~Jim Butcher

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                To the OP, I don't really get where that comes from. Where everything is so black or white. To me, right off the cuff, the words 'atheist pagan' simply means "a pagan that doesn't do the god/dess bit." And throwing witchcraft into the mix is decidedly non sequitor.

                That's part of the reason that I define my religion as 'Pagan', an arguably meaningless word that gives no indication of my (or anyone's) beliefs and, in fact, barely scratches the surface of what beliefs it DOES'T entail. The word 'athiest' isn't *quite* as vague as 'pagan' but is still ambiguous.

                That should also shed some light on my choice of descriptors, in my profile, for religion questions.




                "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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                  #23
                  Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                  As of now, everyone is either agnostic or wrong. The existence of deity is unknown, no one can rightly or truthfully say either way whether any god exists.

                  The only problem I have with a person identifying as an atheist pagan, is they probably have their words in the wrong order. They are using atheist as an adjective and pagan as a noun, when what they are most likely trying to do is describe their practices as being related to paganism while maintaining that they are non-theistic.

                  In other words, that they are a pagan atheist. Pagan can be an adjective, atheist cannot. The adjectival form is atheistic, if you feel strongly that you should identify as a pagan.

                  I identify as a pagan atheist, at least most days. I think it would be disingenuous to refer to myself as a witch, either outright or somewhat depending on what I am meaning by "witch."
                  Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                    #24
                    Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                    As of now, everyone is either agnostic or wrong. The existence of deity is unknown, no one can rightly or truthfully say either way whether any god exists.
                    Not really. Just because they don't know absolutely whether they're right or wrong, doesn't automatically make them wrong. You don't have to be sure that a belief is correct for it to be correct. And that's ignoring the vast spectrum of different attitudes towards deity, there are plenty of ways of incorporating theistic ideas into your spiritual practice without believing that deities exist as literal, independent entities the way humans do.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                      Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                      Just because they don't know absolutely whether they're right or wrong, doesn't automatically make them wrong. You don't have to be sure that a belief is correct for it to be correct. And that's ignoring the vast spectrum of different attitudes towards deity, there are plenty of ways of incorporating theistic ideas into your spiritual practice without believing that deities exist as literal, independent entities the way humans do.
                      I don't deny that, but belief is irrelevant to the point I was making. The existence or nonexistence of gods has not been established, it is not known. The agnostic position is that the existence of deities is unknown or unknowable, in other words it has nothing to do with belief. You can be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist.

                      I said that someone is agnostic or wrong, because the existence of gods is not known. In other words, if they say they are not agnostic they are wrong. It's not a matter of if they identify as such, only if they understand and agree with the point thereof.

                      Agnostic, as an identifier, means nothing unless you are specifically claiming that the existence of deity is unknowable. If you believe you believe, if you don't you don't. Either pick a side, or say that you haven't made up your mind yet. Saying you're "agnostic" is just deflecting the question.

                      Theism = belief in deity. Atheism = No belief in deity. There is no third option or middle ground, you either do or you don't.
                      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                        Originally posted by ChainLightning View Post
                        To the OP, I don't really get where that comes from. Where everything is so black or white. To me, right off the cuff, the words 'atheist pagan' simply means "a pagan that doesn't do the god/dess bit." And throwing witchcraft into the mix is decidedly non sequitor.

                        That's part of the reason that I define my religion as 'Pagan', an arguably meaningless word that gives no indication of my (or anyone's) beliefs and, in fact, barely scratches the surface of what beliefs it DOES'T entail. The word 'athiest' isn't *quite* as vague as 'pagan' but is still ambiguous.

                        That should also shed some light on my choice of descriptors, in my profile, for religion questions.
                        See, and that's the bit that gets me about labels period. I don't even call myself anything. I think most of my family thinks I'm an atheist, but that's just because I don't talk about my spirituality. If somebody asks, "What's your religion?" I say "Pagan." ....if I have to elaborate, well...a discussion like this thread happens.

                        I believe some stuff. I don't believe some stuff. I can't really confine it to one word, or two words, or even a whole sentence of words. But people generally aren't happy with that, and want the tl;dr version (because ain't nobody got the time to listen to me describe what I believe in) ...so I usually throw atheist pagan at them, or nature worshipper (if I'm talking to hippies. saying this to normal people embarasses me, though I think it is the truest phrase)

                        And yeah, I guess I do a bunch of cottagewitch type stuff, but I still don't really feel like I'm a witch, either.

                        Words and stuff, man. Why do we have to be defined by words and stuff?


                        Mostly art.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                          This is the advantage of saying eccentric, insane or Jedi. They're fun to use and very big, bright "I can't be bothered to define myself for you" signs. Or maybe, I'm just a bit odd....
                          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                            Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                            Agnostic, as an identifier, means nothing unless you are specifically claiming that the existence of deity is unknowable. If you believe you believe, if you don't you don't. Either pick a side, or say that you haven't made up your mind yet. Saying you're "agnostic" is just deflecting the question.

                            Theism = belief in deity. Atheism = No belief in deity. There is no third option or middle ground, you either do or you don't.
                            That's not true at all. A lot of people don't know for sure. An agnostic can be someone who isn't willing to say either one, because they aren't sure if they believe in a divine being or force or not. Agnosticism can (and often does) express a degree of doubt or uncertainty.

                            No one has to be certain they believe there is some divine force or being, or certain that there isn't. "I don't know. I think there might be a higher power, but I see no evidence of it, so I'm just not sure" is a valid stated as much as "I am certain there's some divine force or being, but I don't know what it is" or "I am completely convinced no such force or being exists".

                            Uncertainty exists and is valid.

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                              #29
                              Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                              Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post
                              That's not true at all. A lot of people don't know for sure. An agnostic can be someone who isn't willing to say either one, because they aren't sure if they believe in a divine being or force or not. Agnosticism can (and often does) express a degree of doubt or uncertainty.
                              If they believe in at least one god that makes them a theist, if they don't that makes them an atheist. Doubt, uncertainty, and the extent to which they hold their beliefs does not have any bearing on this.

                              Uncertainty does exist and is valid, what it is not is agnosticism. Which is a formal philosophical term referring to a specific ontological argument.

                              As I said in that quote: Either pick a side, or say that you haven't made up your mind. If someone asks you what you believe, in the context of deity, just say "I don't know." or "I don't care." It takes no more effort than saying you are agnostic, and actually gets across the point you are making in an intelligent and practical manner.
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Atheist Paganism equated to just being called a 'witch'?

                                Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                                If they believe in at least one god that makes them a theist, if they don't that makes them an atheist. Doubt, uncertainty, and the extent to which they hold their beliefs does not have any bearing on this.

                                Uncertainty does exist and is valid, what it is not is agnosticism. Which is a formal philosophical term referring to a specific ontological argument.

                                As I said in that quote: Either pick a side, or say that you haven't made up your mind. If someone asks you what you believe, in the context of deity, just say "I don't know." or "I don't care." It takes no more effort than saying you are agnostic, and actually gets across the point you are making in an intelligent and practical manner.
                                I'm not being disrespectful, but when people ask, "What's your religion", 90% of the time they are NOT engaged in any sort of formal philosophical ontological arguments. The term "agnostic" in standard conversation relates to a person who is not sure.

                                agnostic: a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

                                So while you may choose to attempt to force internet or random street-side discussions to accept formal philosophical terms and to be, will they or nil they, ontological arguments... I wish you great luck with that, but I don't foresee you having much luck with it.

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