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  • #16
    Re: Runes for divination

    [quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=697.msg16741#msg16741 date=1290599778]
    Do you have a favourite futhark/fothorc? I started off with the ELder Futhark and moved on to the Anglo Saxon runes.
    [/quote]

    I prefer the Elder Futhark.
    "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

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    • #17
      Re: Runes for divination

      As I said I started off with the EF first.... but the Anglo Saxon runes kept on calling, and I learned Anglo Saxon and after that it all really made a lot of sense to me. The Anglo Saxon rune poem has at least one direct reference to divination - although most translations tie themselves into knots trying to avoid it! I
      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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      • #18
        Re: Runes for divination

        [quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=697.msg16766#msg16766 date=1290604313]
        As I said I started off with the EF first.... but the Anglo Saxon runes kept on calling, and I learned Anglo Saxon and after that it all really made a lot of sense to me. The Anglo Saxon rune poem has at least one direct reference to divination - although most translations tie themselves into knots trying to avoid it! I
        [/quote]

        You are right that the Anglo Saxon Rune Poem contains references to Runic Divination.

        The King James Bible ignores the difference between agape and phileo.

        Later interpretation does not prove former intention.
        "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

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        • #19
          Re: Runes for divination

          Absolutely! And of course all translations - even our own - are wide open to interpretation. The more I study, the more surprising some of the widely accepted views seem to be!

          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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          • #20
            Re: Runes for divination

            [quote author=ThorsSon link=topic=697.msg16860#msg16860 date=1290618183]
            It is amazing that you completely ignored what I said and interpreted it as you wished..

            The irony is palpable considering the last thing I said was "Later interpretation does not prove former intention."

            [sarcasm]But I guess you can take that any way you want to.[/sarcasm]
            [/quote]

            Oh, ThorsSon, I didn't think you were being sarcastic... and still don't. I hope you weren't. But then I'm not quick to take offence (well, not normally).

            Unless we are native speakers of OE/AS then we have to rely upon interpretation, surely? And whose interpretation we accept is obviously going to differ. So it is with intention - we cannot get into the minds of those who wrote the original, and in the case of the AS rune poem all we are dealing with is probably a later copy. Scribes weren't infallible, were they?

            I was hoping we could have discussed some more, but perhaps you think I'm too simple to bother with. [no sarcasm of course... only sweetness ]
            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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            • #21
              Re: Runes for divination

              Tylluan, you are too quick for my snarkiness.

              I, from time to time, vent by typing something, hitting post, then deleting it before anyone can read it... today I failed.

              You quoted before I deleted... oops.

              However, the gist stands.. you are correct when you say that we have to rely on interpretation... but I do find it hard to embrace when 2 out of 3 Rune Poems do not mention divination, and the one that does is the newest one... that is the reason for my "Later interpretation does not prove former intention," quote.

              I am not against further discussion... I just didn't expect it, because I didn't intend anyone to actually read the post you quoted.

              Because I am petty like that.
              "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

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              • #22
                Re: Runes for divination


                Oh that's fine - and you're quite right in what you say though I have to admit that there is a lot of controversy about the dating of the rune poems. There are some who believe that the linguistic evidence of the AS poem actually makes it the oldest of the three - although what survives is a much later copy. : The mind boggles.

                Another problem of course is that not all the runes of the Elder Futhark are accounted for outside the AS rune poem. So this does give us all a few headaches.

                I think one of the things that really fascinates me is the extent to which the translations - even accepted 'academic' ones, can vary. I've been doing some work on the AS metrical charms recently and it can turn into a real headache. Even Sweet, who back in my day was normally accepted as having produced a reliable dictionary, is questioned.

                I think I need a time machine!
                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                • #23
                  Re: Runes for divination

                  You raise very valid points.

                  I must admit that I have encountered the arguments that the Anglo Saxon Run Poem is the oldest of the Rune Poems. I also must admit that I do not have a rational argument to defend my belief that it is NOT the eldest of the Rune Poems.

                  I have built my belief, that the Elder Futhark predates the other Runes, on rational and defensible arguments... but honestly, my knowledge of the Rune Poems is secondary.

                  That being said... considering that the Futhorc is undeniably newer than the Futhark, I have a lot of trouble placing the AS Rune Poem chronologically before the Elder OR the Younger Rune Poem... but I could be way off... it is certainly a very real possibility, since the Runes are not a subject that I have studied thoroughly.

                  A time machine is something that I have often wished for.
                  "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

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                  • #24
                    Re: Runes for divination

                    I'm not sure whether you would be interested but I do have a fascinating document on the AS metrical charms (a little off-topic I admit) which I could email you if you wished. It's by Grendon, who is normally acknowledged as something of an authority on the subject and contains both the translation and the original OE. It's in a PDF but comes from a reputable site - besides which I've had it in my computer for ages! Do PM me if you would like a copy!
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                    • #25
                      Re: Runes for divination

                      There is no historical texts that can explain how rune divination was done, so to me, it can have nothing to do with heathenry as we can't honestly reconstruct how our ancestors used runes in this way, there is a sub section for this subject can it be moved there.

                      Runes were used for writing and on rune staves the deaf used with common phrases.

                      Modi
                      Last edited by Gunnarr; 06 Feb 2011, 14:12.
                      Gunnarr Sandisson
                      "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be." Albert Einstein
                      Five Boroughs Hearth

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                      • #26
                        Re: Runes for divination

                        Originally posted by Modi View Post
                        There is no historical texts that can explain how rune divination was done, so to me, it can have nothing to do with heathenry as we can't honestly reconstruct how our ancestors used runes in this way, there is a sub section for this subject can it be moved there.

                        Runes were used for writing and on rune staves the deaf used with common phrases.

                        Modi
                        I quite agree that historical texts don't describe how rune divination was done (unless you accept that Tacitus was talking about runes and the jury is still out on that one.)

                        However, harking back to the first verse of the AS rune poem and you will see that the word for 'lots' - widely accepted as meaning divination - is actually part of the text. So for me - and I recognise others will feel differently about this - I think that runes were used for divination although the exact method may not be recoverable.
                        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                        • #27
                          Re: Runes for divination

                          That's very interesting TP, thanks I shall have to dig out my copy.
                          * * *
                          You can find some of my creative writing at http://libbyscribbles.com

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                          • #28
                            Re: Runes for divination

                            The biggest problem of course is that we have to work with translations and these can vary so wildly that sometimes I don't think I'm working with the same text. Howe3ver if you look in the AS text, you will find the word 'hleotan' which means lots, which in the ancient world meant divination in some shape or form (and there were many!)
                            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                            • #29
                              Re: Runes for divination

                              I believe that the OE Rune Poem was written in the eighth or ninth century some time after the conversion. So my thoughts are that the poem is in some sense divinatory, however, not necessarily heathen.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Runes for divination

                                Originally posted by Nordri View Post
                                I believe that the OE Rune Poem was written in the eighth or ninth century some time after the conversion. So my thoughts are that the poem is in some sense divinatory, however, not necessarily heathen.
                                The dating of the OE Rune has long been open to debate. So is the dating of the conversion, which was by no means all that straightforward... there was quite a bit of backsliding although by the 8th /9th century, we could reasonably expect England to be mostly Christian. However, it's worth mentioning with regard to the northern traditions that Snorri Sturluson was writing in a period when Iceland was ostensibly Christian, although (and I am treading very warily here) many people accept his writings as relatively accurate accounts of heathen beliefs, rather than literary constructs. I value your opinions in this, Nordri and would like to hear whether you feel that this makes his writings any less (or more!) reliable.
                                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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