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    #76
    Re: How do I tell the Difference?

    Originally posted by PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos View Post
    I think those types of magic are fine depending on your morality and position in life. All the things you mention remind me of business practice and neuro-linguistic programming (one of my favorite subjects which involves a lot of hypnotic techniques, what some magicians/witches may consider part of the 'black arts' because it can be seductive).

    Sometimes you just need to get things done. You need to sell yourself. If you have ever gone to a job interview or a date you most likely dressed for the part and presented yourself at your best to get the desired effect- a paycheck or romance. Eye contact, confident (or flirtatious) speech and posture, tonal inflection (a slight change in voice for desired effect), etc. I think the old world witches called this fascination and glamor. You do the same thing when going to a wedding, funeral or fancy party- you dress up and present yourself at a higher level than you would on a normal day or a party with a bunch friends and associates. You play different parts to get different results. Of course, this could also be representing different aspects of the self, but for the sake of this post, we'll stick to the conscious decision to act a part to get something done, which is seduction and suggestion. I consider these practices (hypnosis and suggestion) results driven magic, which I consider lower black magic (like I said, I like to label things). You don't need candles to 'cast a spell'.
    I see your point. so pretty much since i see magic as neither good or bad, to me its all about the intention....then apparently these kind of 'spells' seem to be ok. i dont see anything bad/black/evil in them at all.
    and i have had people tell me that those kind of spells are being created for greed...which is a bad thing to do, that comes with punishment...i just cant see where its bad, and i dont see why someone would be punished to make them self happy....we are allowed to make other people happy (as long as we arent doing it behind their backs) so why not make ourself happy as well. plus one has to take care of ones self to be able to take care of others, thats one of the first things i learned in psychology class in college.

    Comment


      #77
      Re: How do I tell the Difference?

      Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
      since this thread has taken lots of turns, i dont think one more will hurt
      so what do you all think of doing magic for your own gain...getting more money, a new job, a better job, luck, fertility, health, beauty, i mean the list of things goes on and on and on...
      i know this may cause a debate....but an interesting one. it seems so this is one of the points that people have very very different opinions over!
      This is definately a point alot of people have bickered over in the past, if I was feeling more enterprising I would dig up and post some old (now locked) threads, I stil may....
      There are a few schools of thought as far as I know. Mostly what happens here depends on how you view magic, for instance, it was mentioned that a spell done for rain in drought killed the worms were considered, perhaps, to be an acceptable sacrifice, to crops getting watered, people being fed, so on. Well if you do a spell for getting a job, consider perhaps that you may beat out someone who needs the job more, or an opening comes up for you because someone gets fired, or a company just really needs someone who happens to have all of your qualifications and you happen to see the posting at just the right time. People casting spells like to think that it is always the first scenario which plays out, and who is to say that sometimes it isn't, but it is not always. An argument can be made for you "manipulating the interviewer's mind" when casting the spell to make them prefer you over the otehr applicant, the argument could also be made that your qualifications were better, and that is not your fault. It is hard, and frankly impossible to know for sure. If someone has been fired and their position opens up for you an argument can be made both for it was the fired persons own fault they were fired, and for you changed the way in which the person was percieved for your benefit. Its an odd area and it depends, again, on how you view magic. Sometimes the best option is the spell to find the "right" job, or turn your luck around, or have more confidence, (don't overdo it though :P) The trick is thinking about what you really want or need rather than being too secific, because even if you are totally careful about not causing harm, and you totally get this job and no one got hurt, it still may not be a good job for you, you could hate it, and be forced to compromise your morals while working there. (think accountant for a bank CEO, looking to justify his million dollar bonus.) you may be getting paid really well, you may be able to take care of your kids and do the best of everything and have become the perfect parent, or lover, or have the home life you always wanted, but you hate yourself at work. It is what it is and those are things to be weighed like with every decision.

      Keep in mind though that if you are allowed to make other people happy with magic, you are allowed to make yourself happy. Don't force yourself to be a martyr magically. If you get sick you take medicine, if you lose your job you do everything you can to keep yourself and your family afloat. it isn't really greedy to wanna be able to afford to eat, it's survival. You are allowed to be happy too, and if neglecting yourself is whats happening, then by not doing something you may be doing more harm than doing something would do...

      - - - Updated - - -

      Shoot I've written a bleeding book...
      http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

      But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
      ~Jim Butcher

      Comment


        #78
        Re: How do I tell the Difference?

        Originally posted by Maria de Luna View Post
        This is definately a point alot of people have bickered over in the past, if I was feeling more enterprising I would dig up and post some old (now locked) threads, I stil may....
        There are a few schools of thought as far as I know. Mostly what happens here depends on how you view magic, for instance, it was mentioned that a spell done for rain in drought killed the worms were considered, perhaps, to be an acceptable sacrifice, to crops getting watered, people being fed, so on. Well if you do a spell for getting a job, consider perhaps that you may beat out someone who needs the job more, or an opening comes up for you because someone gets fired, or a company just really needs someone who happens to have all of your qualifications and you happen to see the posting at just the right time. People casting spells like to think that it is always the first scenario which plays out, and who is to say that sometimes it isn't, but it is not always. An argument can be made for you "manipulating the interviewer's mind" when casting the spell to make them prefer you over the otehr applicant, the argument could also be made that your qualifications were better, and that is not your fault. It is hard, and frankly impossible to know for sure. If someone has been fired and their position opens up for you an argument can be made both for it was the fired persons own fault they were fired, and for you changed the way in which the person was percieved for your benefit. Its an odd area and it depends, again, on how you view magic. Sometimes the best option is the spell to find the "right" job, or turn your luck around, or have more confidence, (don't overdo it though :P) The trick is thinking about what you really want or need rather than being too secific, because even if you are totally careful about not causing harm, and you totally get this job and no one got hurt, it still may not be a good job for you, you could hate it, and be forced to compromise your morals while working there. (think accountant for a bank CEO, looking to justify his million dollar bonus.) you may be getting paid really well, you may be able to take care of your kids and do the best of everything and have become the perfect parent, or lover, or have the home life you always wanted, but you hate yourself at work. It is what it is and those are things to be weighed like with every decision.

        Keep in mind though that if you are allowed to make other people happy with magic, you are allowed to make yourself happy. Don't force yourself to be a martyr magically. If you get sick you take medicine, if you lose your job you do everything you can to keep yourself and your family afloat. it isn't really greedy to wanna be able to afford to eat, it's survival. You are allowed to be happy too, and if neglecting yourself is whats happening, then by not doing something you may be doing more harm than doing something would do...

        - - - Updated - - -

        Shoot I've written a bleeding book...
        i can definitely see where people have had great debates over this subject...as it is for 1 kinda touchy...and for 2 everyone's views on this seem to be as opposite as day and night. i was just always confused on how helping oneself (when really in need, not just because its sunny out today) is such a horrible thing. i just dont and cant see magic in that perspective. i connect magic with allot of things and a couple of them, to name a few, happen to be happiness, a healing well, purity and energy, freedom. and ive always since the time i can remember had a feeling from deep inside telling me that as long as you are pure of heart, your actions will be pure.
        i think belief and 'the way of mind' in this matter play a gigantic role.
        thanks this was a really great explanation...and i think focusing on the nonspecific is a very good idea...being more in general then literally asking for a job or etc etc etc...i like that allot.

        Comment


          #79
          Re: How do I tell the Difference?

          Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
          i can definitely see where people have had great debates over this subject...as it is for 1 kinda touchy...and for 2 everyone's views on this seem to be as opposite as day and night. i was just always confused on how helping oneself (when really in need, not just because its sunny out today) is such a horrible thing. i just dont and cant see magic in that perspective. i connect magic with allot of things and a couple of them, to name a few, happen to be happiness, a healing well, purity and energy, freedom. and ive always since the time i can remember had a feeling from deep inside telling me that as long as you are pure of heart, your actions will be pure.
          i think belief and 'the way of mind' in this matter play a gigantic role.
          thanks this was a really great explanation...and i think focusing on the nonspecific is a very good idea...being more in general then literally asking for a job or etc etc etc...i like that allot.
          Sometimes, to me, the real trick is in knowing what it really is that you want/need and I don't think we spend enough time sometimes thinking about that before making a decision to do someting we have'nt given an appropriate ammount of thought to.
          again just my 2 pennies...
          http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

          But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
          ~Jim Butcher

          Comment


            #80
            Re: How do I tell the Difference?

            Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
            'Surprise Sex' > awesome!!!!! IF it is coming from someone you know and want it from!!

            - - - Updated - - -

            since this thread has taken lots of turns, i dont think one more will hurt
            so what do you all think of doing magic for your own gain...getting more money, a new job, a better job, luck, fertility, health, beauty, i mean the list of things goes on and on and on...
            i know this may cause a debate....but an interesting one. it seems so this is one of the points that people have very very different opinions over!

            - - - Updated - - -


            thanks for the info!! one of my replies to this post just got "snacked on"...who exactly is the staff???
            Anyone with a green or red name. I'm not seeing a post requiring moderation left in this thread. When did you make the missing post?
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


            Comment


              #81
              Re: How do I tell the Difference?

              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
              Anyone with a green or red name. I'm not seeing a post requiring moderation left in this thread. When did you make the missing post?
              apparently i was the only one who couldnt see it, as other members had already replied to it...the mistake was either my internet connection or my computer. i can see it now...so all is well
              thanks for the info though, it will still be handy!!

              Comment


                #82
                Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
                since this thread has taken lots of turns, i dont think one more will hurt
                so what do you all think of doing magic for your own gain...getting more money, a new job, a better job, luck, fertility, health, beauty, i mean the list of things goes on and on and on...
                I see no problem. As I've said before, if you want to do some good in the world, you have to be in a position to do so. You have to help yourself before you can help others.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                  As has been mentioned, countless times, doing *whatever* kind of magic is ultimately personal. Personally, I'm stunned by the insinuation that there's some moral or ethical application, involved. That makes no sense to me. Of course, labeling magic as black or white makes no sense to me either. Colors? That sounds like "candle magick", if you ask me (thanks, uncle Bucky! Bastage).


                  With that in mind, then, personal gain or selfless practice becomes a rather moot question. IMO. It is what you make it. No more, no less.




                  "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                  "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                  "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                  "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                  Comment


                    #84
                    Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                    Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
                    I see your point. so pretty much since i see magic as neither good or bad, to me its all about the intention....then apparently these kind of 'spells' seem to be ok. i dont see anything bad/black/evil in them at all.
                    and i have had people tell me that those kind of spells are being created for greed...which is a bad thing to do, that comes with punishment...i just cant see where its bad, and i dont see why someone would be punished to make them self happy....we are allowed to make other people happy (as long as we arent doing it behind their backs) so why not make ourself happy as well. plus one has to take care of ones self to be able to take care of others, thats one of the first things i learned in psychology class in college.
                    I agree that our happiness comes before others, simply because if I am happy and a loved on is suffering I am then able to help in a beneficial way, not just give them another reason to smash their head into a wall by my shared negative attitude. I see no reason someone would or should be punished by creating magic for a specific desire such as money or love. When it really comes down to it any action made with a clear intention is magic- a very potent form as well. I think setting the intention in a ritual setting and raising the emotional and other internal energies helps set a course of action to be taken, but the actual getting out and doing it is the real magic. It is hard and fast results. Also by doing the 'lower black magic' in a face to face interview the probability of someone being harmed in the process or someone better qualified for the job is no longer a viable option because of your performance because of some other negative outcome is nullified because you did all your magic in the moment. There was no time for the energy or intention to get screwed around in the ether (or whatever you believe causes magic) because the magic was your presence not a ritual done a week or the night before. Magic done right then and there with instant results is the safest form I think. And I do not consider self-gratifying magic evil, not do I see black magic as evil, just terms to specify certain workings. Obviously, some people do not like to label magic at all, it just makes it easier on my mind, plus I like the associations. It makes it all the more 'Oooooh!' for me.

                    It's the same thing in a self defense situation. If you cast a spell or do a vampiric working to drain someone of life force or motivation through astral travel, scrying, etc, you have the possibility of draining the wrong person, or they may get drained while on the freeway or walking somewhere, lose control and end up being killed rather than just stopped for the moment. Whereas if you drained their energy upon attack, or right before in their presence, they are drained in the spot and all other possibilities are once again nullified because there was no extra channel for the intent to be filtered through, only the moment in a face to face encounter. This is why I think learning internal martial arts is very important for any would be magician, but this is just my bias because of my upbringing and personal philosophy (You could use tantra yoga or any other energetic system martially if you like, but I specifically mean qigong [Baguazhang is a great example, at least in the higher teachings] because they have mastered many, if not all, methods of psychic and energetic attack, defense and healing).

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                      A lot of this, to me, comes down to the way I word my spells. Perhaps it's because I'm a writer, but I like my spells to ask the universe for things, and I can only hope the universe delivers. The only "bad" magick I've ever done is when I've commanded the universe to do something. Of course I don't believe I actually can command the universe, however that kind of wording has definitely produced some strong and icky-feeling spells.

                      I think if I'm doing magick, even for personal gain, as long as I'm asking the universe to give me these things, to help me along my path, I find it acceptable.

                      It should be noted, I've never done any magick with the intention of harming another, so I'm not sure how I'd feel about that.

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