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    #31
    Re: How do I tell the Difference?

    I come to this thread a bit late,and I will tell you i did not read every bit of the give and take. I am of the mind that I have no qualms in using dark magic,but only if there is no other choice for the purpose needed for my objective. generally I tend toward the light,but I find times when going for an outcome that is as close as I can come to a "Light" solution I may indeed cross into the dark because a little darkness may help to make the light a bit brighter. I really am not as constrained concerning morality as some would seem. What is moral is subjective at least in my mind,and if crossing that line results in a better outcome then I am willing to take that negative energy into myself if it is required to have a positive outcome for others.

    Just my own view of our reality,and I should tell you I see our reality a bit differently than some. I see patterns in everything
    ,kind of my gift and my curse. I may actually suffer from perhaps OCD in a positive and negative way,I see what most overlook in things and have had to put blinders on myself to filter out things so they are not overwhelming. it took many years to learn to do that filtering,and I used to use drugs and drinking to drown out the noise so I could function without becoming very distracted by all the sights and sounds that are all around us every day.

    it may take a while for you to find your true path,but really the journey is more important than the destination.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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      #32
      Re: How do I tell the Difference?

      Originally posted by anunitu View Post
      I come to this thread a bit late,and I will tell you i did not read every bit of the give and take. I am of the mind that I have no qualms in using dark magic,but only if there is no other choice for the purpose needed for my objective. generally I tend toward the light,but I find times when going for an outcome that is as close as I can come to a "Light" solution I may indeed cross into the dark because a little darkness may help to make the light a bit brighter. I really am not as constrained concerning morality as some would seem. What is moral is subjective at least in my mind,and if crossing that line results in a better outcome then I am willing to take that negative energy into myself if it is required to have a positive outcome for others.

      Just my own view of our reality,and I should tell you I see our reality a bit differently than some. I see patterns in everything
      ,kind of my gift and my curse. I may actually suffer from perhaps OCD in a positive and negative way,I see what most overlook in things and have had to put blinders on myself to filter out things so they are not overwhelming. it took many years to learn to do that filtering,and I used to use drugs and drinking to drown out the noise so I could function without becoming very distracted by all the sights and sounds that are all around us every day.

      it may take a while for you to find your true path,but really the journey is more important than the destination.
      thanks allot for your opinion! I'm finding all of the posts very helpful. I feel the journey will be long and not always easy, but in the end it will be worth everything.

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        #33
        Re: How do I tell the Difference?

        Magic is a lot like martial arts. When we start we learn proper breathing, posture (structural and energetic alignment), focus, etc. In martial arts we start by hardening the body through fitness and sequential forms to teach the body how to evade, defend and attack. This is like learning the elements and certain meditations. You get to know your body and mind on a deeper level.

        After the basic forms we learn contact conditioning, or two person sets. We go back and forth with specific techniques with light to hard contact (depending on the level of the practitioners) until it is proficient. The longer we train (safely) the harder the bones and skin gets so we can take a fairly solid strike. This is like casting a circle. The better you get at it the better defenses you have from psychic debris.

        At the higher levels we begin to spar, or free form fight. We utilize the basic principles of posture, breathing and form and the intermediate principles of contact and combination but we flow with a partner attacking and defending for points or time (no knockouts because it is a safe training environment). This is like a full on ritual. All the elements of the basics are integrated and during your trance state you may just become one with the project at hand and free flow with the ritual (we call this 'creating the openings' when sparring).

        I explain all that because after you train in martial arts for several years your combat applications are proficient and second nature. You move intuitively and can cause devastating harm with one or two well placed strikes even in the most dangerous and random situations. This is like throwing a curse. Even though you have the power to, say, mess with somebodies mind or cause them some sort of illness, is it right? Is it worth it? Even though you may be able to strike someone down because you know where to hit, how to hit and have trained your body (and still do) hitting with explosive power, is it right? Is it worth it?

        If you are a trained martial artist or fighter and you engage your opponent, even if they started the altercation, you are more likely to spend more time in jail or pay more money for damages because you are a trained weapon. This is why at the highest levels of martial arts we learn the soft arts- evasion, using their strength against them (and some mystical and energetic applications, and this is where magic and martial arts really fit well together) so if a martial artists finds them selves in a dangerous situation they know how to avoid the attacker and defeat them without doing anything obviously harmful to the assailant- off balancing by avoidance, basically. This relates to magic in that when you do magic for self-discovery and healing for self and/or others, you are avoiding any reason to have to throw a curse because you are taking control of your environment through positive and well trained senses and practices (like grounding and centering).

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          #34
          Re: How do I tell the Difference?

          I seriously love your comparisons and metaphors!! it really makes things even easier to understand when you have something you can compare it to...which made me think of something...
          I myself (although I am not judging or trying to offend anyone that does...seriously everyone has a right to their own!!) do not believe in cursing people/hexes/causing someone illness etc etc etc...simply because i personally dont think its a fair fight. i trained in martial arts for almost 3 years, and the first thing you learn is to engage in a fair fight and to not use your abilities towards people that cant handle it. if i already know i will win because the other person has no chance what so ever, then its not fair...i would do exactly as you said keep avoiding them with swift moves until they run themselves into the ground...same applies to me with magic. lets say i am standing over my altar ready to cause someone harm...i wouldnt do it not only because i dont think its not right and not worth it...but also because its just not a fair fight, the other person has no chance to fight back, probably doesn't even know what is happening to him. i believe that everyone has the right to defend themselves, in a case of "smiting with magic" that chance doesn't exist. so "smiting" is just not for me.
          may i add again!! I am not in any way trying to offend anyone that does...everyone has different views and styles....swaggers if you may lol... and its totally cool if other people do hexes and what not, one of my friends does it, she thinks its ok...i dont so what...we are still friends and all is good. everyone has a right to their own belief!

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            #35
            Re: How do I tell the Difference?

            And that is a sense of your own moral, your own idea of right and wrong, and all you have to do in future is decide weather the magick your doing can be justified right or wrong by that marality.

            Just to play the devils advocate, your saying don't engage in an unfair fight. what if your agressor was a fair fight. say me or masked one or Psy, someone that could take the hit and deliver one back, would you still beable to stick to your belief that the use of bad energy is compleatly wrong nomatter what?

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              #36
              Re: How do I tell the Difference?

              I don't believe in, well, I don't practice, hexing or any sort of manipulative magic on people because I used to be a bad person, and a little stupid I admit, when I first got into magic (I was thirteen and goth, you get the picture) and did a gnarly spell that sent a kid to the hospital. I spelled a girl to date me (which could have been coincidental because she was kind of... not so pure) and sold my soul to Satan and Lucifuge Rofocle not knowing what the hell I was doing. That's when I learned vodou is some powerful mojo (when I got older and started working with the Loa [vodoun spirits]) I learned vodou- vodoun magic specifically- should only be dealt with in the hands of a mambo or houngan (priestess or priest, respectively), and to be kind to the Loa and when the authors worn us youngsters and would be occult masters not to dabble but to be patient and practice with a pure heart- LISTEN! Well, until you're used to the ups and downs and twisted ways of magic and understand what it is and how it works in your makeshift paradigm and self-evolving practice, then you can dabble here and there to discover even more tips and tricks- but always come from a pure heart because magic is a lovely, mysterious and powerful thing. Treat it like a respected friend or electricity- they're both very beneficial until you do something really stupid. Then it's just a pain.

              (Sorry for if it sounds like a rant, I know I should be sleeping right now).

              I am glad you liked my metaphors! I found they usually help me a lot as well.

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                #37
                Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
                i agree it is very difficult to never ever harm anything or anyone...if you take the example that was given to me for instance. lets say i want to do a spell to get a little bigger cash flow ..you don't know how you will end up getting that money...someone could die and i could inherit that money...or someone else could loose a hundred dollar bill and i could find it...but do i know if that was that persons last money to buy groceries for their family....this is honestly what confuses me the most!! with the best intention spell i can literally come up with something that could go wrong...
                Well, this is sort of what I was talking about. I always state that the energy is to be used for the highest good of all concerned. But again, that's something that feels "right" according to that compass I was talking about. If you find and recognize your compass, you'll be able to find the right wording and right working. Just my personal experience, though.

                Again, though, for me, even hexes are ultimately intended for the highest good. Why do we punish people? Well, perhaps part of it is out of our own bad feelings, yes. But we are also trying to teach them. So when you punish someone, it's about protecting others from bad behavior by teaching the person committing the wrong action.... and if you add in the caveat that all energies involved are to work together for the highest good of all... then you may find that person turning around because what they really needed most was understanding... and because you allowed for that POTENTIAL, they got what they actually needed.

                In every action I take, I ask for it to work towards the highest good. That doesn't mean that everything I do is sweetness and light. Sometimes you need a little vinegar or some bitters to make a dish delicious.

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                  #38
                  Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                  Originally posted by Kahlenda View Post
                  And that is a sense of your own moral, your own idea of right and wrong, and all you have to do in future is decide weather the magick your doing can be justified right or wrong by that marality.

                  Just to play the devils advocate, your saying don't engage in an unfair fight. what if your agressor was a fair fight. say me or masked one or Psy, someone that could take the hit and deliver one back, would you still beable to stick to your belief that the use of bad energy is compleatly wrong nomatter what?
                  hmmm...that is a good question, you just gave me something to think about all night LOL i will have to think on this...because a fair fight would change allot.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post
                  Well, this is sort of what I was talking about. I always state that the energy is to be used for the highest good of all concerned. But again, that's something that feels "right" according to that compass I was talking about. If you find and recognize your compass, you'll be able to find the right wording and right working. Just my personal experience, though.

                  Again, though, for me, even hexes are ultimately intended for the highest good. Why do we punish people? Well, perhaps part of it is out of our own bad feelings, yes. But we are also trying to teach them. So when you punish someone, it's about protecting others from bad behavior by teaching the person committing the wrong action.... and if you add in the caveat that all energies involved are to work together for the highest good of all... then you may find that person turning around because what they really needed most was understanding... and because you allowed for that POTENTIAL, they got what they actually needed.

                  In every action I take, I ask for it to work towards the highest good. That doesn't mean that everything I do is sweetness and light. Sometimes you need a little vinegar or some bitters to make a dish delicious.
                  I think if one really wants to...one can see a positive outcome to everything...or a negative outcome to everything. i am starting to believe that is just it though. if you go into something optimistic sticking to the positive outcome, then it will be positive...well and if you go into something completely pessimistic you will achieve the exact opposite...the outcome will be also negative...

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                    #39
                    Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                    I was brought up in a family of witches who did almost nothing but hex, so I've seen a lot of this at very close quarters. And although I left their group when I was still in my teens, I reserve the right to hex if I am willing to accept all the consequences (and there are consequences from all magic, anyway IMHO) just as I reserve the right to punch someone on the nose if I feel I really must.

                    But regarding hexing, I will caution this. It is addictive. You can start out doing it just to see if you can. But eventually it has you in its grip and won't easily let you go.

                    And personally I think a hex-all-and-anything approach is such a waste of talent.
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                      #40
                      Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                      Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
                      I think if one really wants to...one can see a positive outcome to everything...or a negative outcome to everything. i am starting to believe that is just it though. if you go into something optimistic sticking to the positive outcome, then it will be positive...well and if you go into something completely pessimistic you will achieve the exact opposite...the outcome will be also negative...
                      I don't agree with that, lol. Some things are clearly wrong. You can't wish somebody dead "with good intentions" or "hoping for a positive outcome." Additionally, good and bad are very subjective. I'm sure you've heard the story about the guy and his son?




                      A man and his son own a ranch in a certain country. One day, they are out working with the horses, and the son is thrown to the ground and trampled, breaking his arm. All of the neighbors say, "Oh, what terrible luck!"

                      The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."

                      The next week, a war breaks out and soldiers come to the town. They conscript every able-bodied young man into the army. The rancher's son doesn't go to war, because his arm is broken. The neighbors all cry, "what wonderful luck!"

                      The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."

                      A month later, his son falls from his horse and is killed instantly. The neighbors all cry and weep for him, "What terrible luck!"

                      The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."

                      A plague strikes the village and people suffer horrific pain as they die, and they realize that the son missed the terrible suffering agony and say, "what wonderful luck!"

                      The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."




                      Life's unpredictable. All you can control are your intentions, not the outcome of what happens. Integrity is not about the outcome, it is about the intention.

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                        #41
                        Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                        You can actually wish someone dead with good intentions (toward the target). It's an act that I tend view with extreme prejudice but the topic has come up and my views of the proposed action aside, I have no reason to doubt the motives of the person suggesting it.

                        and no I have no desire to expound on the discussion where I've seen this happen before.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                          #42
                          Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                          Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post
                          I don't agree with that, lol. Some things are clearly wrong. You can't wish somebody dead "with good intentions" or "hoping for a positive outcome." Additionally, good and bad are very subjective. I'm sure you've heard the story about the guy and his son?




                          A man and his son own a ranch in a certain country. One day, they are out working with the horses, and the son is thrown to the ground and trampled, breaking his arm. All of the neighbors say, "Oh, what terrible luck!"

                          The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."

                          The next week, a war breaks out and soldiers come to the town. They conscript every able-bodied young man into the army. The rancher's son doesn't go to war, because his arm is broken. The neighbors all cry, "what wonderful luck!"

                          The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."

                          A month later, his son falls from his horse and is killed instantly. The neighbors all cry and weep for him, "What terrible luck!"

                          The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."

                          A plague strikes the village and people suffer horrific pain as they die, and they realize that the son missed the terrible suffering agony and say, "what wonderful luck!"

                          The rancher shrugs and says, "Maybe."




                          Life's unpredictable. All you can control are your intentions, not the outcome of what happens. Integrity is not about the outcome, it is about the intention.
                          i have not heard of this story. good thing to read though.
                          btw i have known people that wished other people to die with a good intention...simply that the person was old, deathly ill and people just wished and hoped for the person finally to be able to pass over and be in no pain and in peace...so also that apparently can be seen in a good manner.
                          not that i would wish death onto anyone, but just for the record, it can be viewed as something "good" in my opinion...
                          but like i said, i personally just think its possible with anything....people start wars for the "best" intentions...yet people are being brutally killed and slaughtered...but of course we have something good in mind whilst doing this....
                          i have noticed the most evil people in the world are doing things with the "best" intentions....even though others may not see it as a good intention.
                          but again no offense, this is just simply my opinion, i do not take offense in people not having the same opinion as me...i hope others are the same.
                          Last edited by Guest; 05 May 2013, 05:45.

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                            #43
                            Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                            Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
                            i have not heard of this story. good thing to read though.
                            btw i have known people that wished other people to die with a good intention...simply that the person was old, deathly ill and people just wished and hoped for the person finally to be able to pass over and be in no pain and in peace...so also that apparently can be seen in a good manner.
                            not that i would wish death onto anyone, but just for the record, it can be viewed as something "good" in my opinion...
                            but like i said, i personally just think its possible with anything....people start wars for the "best" intentions...yet people are being brutally killed and slaughtered...but of course we have something good in mind whilst doing this....
                            i have noticed the most evil people in the world are doing things with the "best" intentions....even though others may not see it as a good intention.
                            but again no offense, this is just simply my opinion, i do not take offense in people not having the same opinion as me...i hope others are the same.
                            Wishing someone who's dying, to do so with ease, is not wishing them to die. It's wishing them ease.

                            I maintain that, there are things which we all know inherently are not good. I don't believe intent is the end-all, be-all. As you pointed out, we can go to war for supposedly all the right reason, but terrible things come from war.

                            My point is more that, you can control the energy that YOU send out, by stating that it is to work for only the highest good. Thus even when your intention might be anger or the like (although maybe I"m the only one that sometimes gets mad and projects, lol), that added 'safeguard' helps to protect others.

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                              #44
                              Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                              Originally posted by SPhoenix View Post
                              we can go to war for supposedly all the right reason, but terrible things come from war.
                              Therefore war is inherently evil in all cases and should never be declared for any reason.

                              Morality is subjective, there is nothing in this universe that is good or evil without something to decide that it is so. Because there is no objective moral standard, the morality of the best of us, the worst of us, and even the vast majority of us, are all equally valid.

                              Intent does matter, that is the only way to tell the difference between malice and incompetence. Which is important for legal reasons.
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                                #45
                                Re: How do I tell the Difference?

                                I agree with Denarius that war is inherently evil because of all the harm it causes.

                                Willy-nilly wishing someone or a group dead is just bad juju, but wishing, or doing an extensive ritual even, to kill a murderous child molesting criminal or group of vandalizing, drug dealing, overtly violent and drug addicted thugs is doing society a favor. I think of vampire and werewolf movies when it comes to the 'morality' of their curse of blood lust. They're always whining they need blood to survive or can't control their inner beast. Even the modern vampire community seems to see their hunger as some sort of sickness. Why not just drain the local drug dealers and corrupt cops? Why not eat the throat of a wife beater and drunk with no thought but of his loins no matter the person, gender or age? If they have been offered help and know they can change yet continue down their twisted path, I say all the power to the brave ones who are willing to deny these creeps life. (Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but I think it gets the point across of when hexing or defending ones life comes to be more an act of fight or flight in defense of another's life, not so much a moral decision of how it will affect the witch's personal karma and merit points with the gods).

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