The Death of Capitalism...

[B. de Corbin]

Everybody hates capitalists.

The communists predicted the immediate fall of capitalism in the face of communism about 100 years ago. They finally stopped preaching that in the 70's, when it was obviously so wrong.

Next, the radicals in the Middle East began predicting the death of capitalism, and an end to the Great Satan. Yet, we still have capitalism.

Now, at home radicals are teaching our children that capitalism is on it's last legs.


And yet, despite a long depression, the Dow reached record highs yesterday - higher than it has ever been in its entire history. Stocks are way, way up.


The reports of the demise of capitalism have, it seems, been grossly exaggerated.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

Fair enough, I am still poor enough to swing a cat and be pissed about not being able to replace what the cat whalloped, (where does that phrase come from anyway?) 10 years ago I was working retail and making more than I am now and gas was less than half of what it is now. I don't think capitalism is dead, or even properly dying, but I am all for a little socialism swinging my direction. (sans cats, thats a horrible expression btw...)
I think capitalism is a great idea, and I think communism has its merits too! in fact, within a vacume and in a perfect world all of the ideas are fairly valid, we just need to adjust a few for the "human element" and I think we fail to do that a large ammount of the time.
But what do I know, my family thinks I'm a hippy...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

...and I think communism has its merits too!...

Yeah, if it weren't for the blood bath that follows every communist revolution, and the gulags required to hold the people who disagree with the authorities, the lack of consumer goods, the totalitarian tyranny required to force so many people to live in a way against their will, the crappy logic of The Communist Manifesto, and all the other true history of communism which people like to pretend never happened, communism is a good idea.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

Seems like what the USA's lost is the hope and dream of anyone from anywhere becoming successful through hard work and good ethics. When that dream was alive, there were mechanisms in place to make it a reality. I saw it within my own family/neighborhood, etc. (Study, get good grades, get scholarships, wait tables in the summer to pay your tuition, get an entry level job which paid rent on a small ap't., put forth a good effort, get promoted up the ladder, buy a house, etc.) We had the super-wealthy, but they didn't freeze opportunity for others. Even our entertainment was "futuristic" and optimistic.

Now, those jobs, if they're there, don't pay enough to live on. A full-time summer job won't pay college tuition. The ratio got skewed very strongly throughout the 1980's and as layers of middle management were eliminated, so was the middle class. Large "monopolies" such as AT&T were broken up and so was the corporate "ladder", as people had to job-hop in the hopes of gaining a higher status. Movies and tv shows deal with "post-apocalyptic" times as though it's a certain future. And even in these, there are always warring factions grappling for control and domination.

It doesn't seem like ANY of the social experiments have worked, and greed/power is always at the root of their demise.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

It doesn't seem like ANY of the social experiments have worked, and greed/power is always at the root of their demise.

It is always so easy to blame rich guys (who, ipso facto, are inherently evil & greedy by virtue of the fact that they have more money than others do) for causing trouble. However, you might want to consider this -

The MAIN reason for the fall of the middle class has been the invention of robotics and computers. All those who were previously working factory jobs, and making very good money (my grandfather, for example), lost out to a machine.

And this is OUR fault. It is our fault because we, consumers, want more and more at a lower and lower cost. Since we generally don't give a crap about the people who are exploited in order to get us our cheap toys, as long as they stay cheap, capitalism gives us what we want at the expense of others.

For instance, if you want the oil companies to act ethically, don't complain about the cost of gas. You only get cheap gasoline when somebody, somewhere, is getting the shit end of the stick.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

It's not about being rich. It's about the OPPORTUNITY to become rich, or at least, comfortable. The carrot at the end of the stick has shriveled considerably in my lifetime.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, I'm going to clarify what I'm trying to present. My father was born in the 1930's, followed about 10 years later by a sister (my aunt). Dad was good at math and puzzle-solving. They were working class city people, with no connections and meager savings, and after high school he got a job as a mailroom clerk in a very large company. He met my mother there and they got married when he was 21. In the early 1960's, the company was beginning to look toward something called computers - and every single employee was allowed, if interested, to take an aptitude test. Dad did very well. Fast forward - he retired early as a Sr. Systems Analyst with a nice severance package, a nice home, etc.

My aunt was always interested in science and persevered, as one of few girls to do so, to attend a high school centered around that. She went on to a career at a major pharmaceutical company and retired as a Clinical Trial Mgr., also with a nice home, retirement package, etc.

My mother, as a secretary in the 1950's, was able to maintain a 2 family city home after her father died, and support her own mother, until I came along and we then lived on Dad's salary.

Neither of these companies exist today in their original form.

Do those of you here who are in your teens or 20's anticipate these kinds of opportunities and safety nets for your futures, if you work hard and are loyal to your employer?

Do you think it's the perversion of, or death of, capitalism that has brought these changes? Is it the breakup of monopolies? Or, what?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

Something I ask myself periodically, just to stay on track when the going gets rough -

"Some people are making enough money. Why not me?"

The answer is always the same - I don't actually try hard enough.

Example? When he was in high school, my little brother decided that he wanted to earn his first million before he was thirty. He planned out a career which would make him money (corporate lawyer), spent his time in college working hard, getting exceptional grades, and making important contacts. By the time. He devoted all his effort to making that money. And he did. He has a few million socked away these days, and lives pretty nicely.

Why didn't I do the same thing?

Too much bother...

Some people are making money. If I'm not one of them, I have to honestly ask myself why, and, when I do, I try not to blame the world because I couldn't be bothered to do the work that would make me rich...

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

Something I ask myself periodically, just to stay on track when the going gets rough -

"Some people are making enough money. Why not me?"

The answer is always the same - I don't actually try hard enough.

Example? When he was in high school, my little brother decided that he wanted to earn his first million before he was thirty. He planned out a career which would make him money (corporate lawyer), spent his time in college working hard, getting exceptional grades, and making important contacts. By the time. He devoted all his effort to making that money. And he did. He has a few million socked away these days, and lives pretty nicely.

Why didn't I do the same thing?

Too much bother...

Some people are making money. If I'm not one of them, I have to honestly ask myself why, and, when I do, I try not to blame the world because I couldn't be bothered to do the work that would make me rich...

Well - I did everything my parents and teachers told me to, and it didn't do much. I was able to get a little start-up money and keep it rolling. But that didn't happen till I was in my mid-40's. It had ZERO to do with my good grades, analytical skills, perseverance, dedication, etc., and LESS than zero to do with grad school. I worked for smallish companies hoping to find a ground-floor opportunity but there really wasn't one. I supported myself, but barely. None of the places I worked had a retirement plan. I spent a fortune of time and paper sending resumes out and making phone calls, pounding the pavement, etc., but like most people I knew, the numbers never added up. There was no way I could have saved for a house.
The good part, for me, is that I know I never did the WRONG thing. (Meaning of course what would have been wrong for ME). I never flickered on my ethics even when it cost me bigtime. And I'm pretty proud of that. It's probably my biggest accomplishment in life.

(Frank Sinatra sings "My Way" in the background, fade to black.....) LOL

[nbdy]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

Corbin makes an excellent point, and something I try to integrate into my shopping -- knowing where my stuff comes from and how it was produced. Buying locally is the surest way to do that, though some things simply are not made by my neighbors. Yup, no locally made light bulbs at this time .... heh. Anyway, when I started paying attention to where things were coming from and who was getting "the shit end of the stick," it was surprising how many things I decided weren't necessary. Life became simpler, but better imo.

So, here's the paradox for me. For some people, maybe the shit end of the stick is better than no stick at all. If I am sinking in quicksand, maybe I am grateful to grab onto the shittiest stick end ever rather than go under. I comfort myself that trying keep things local is shining in my corner of the world and to just have faith that others are doing the same elsewhere. Sorry if this sounds sappy.

And so, I don't know what the answer is. Communism makes a lovely theory but humans continue to have the same innate selfishness that has plagued us for as long as I am aware. Most of the people I know and love are simply not psychologically able to live without having more than they truly need. There is no point at which it is decided that "I have enough." Seriously, millionaires concerned about having "enough" for the future. No matter where life lands a person, most display an innate insecurity. This is why capitalism is exploitative -- not the system, but the insecurity of the players. History shows that communism is also exploitative, simply through a different mechanism. Anything resembling the utopian ideal of enough for everyone requires a fundamental change in human nature I guess. Good luck with that.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

Yeah, if it weren't for the blood bath that follows every communist revolution, and the gulags required to hold the people who disagree with the authorities, the lack of consumer goods, the totalitarian tyranny required to force so many people to live in a way against their will, the crappy logic of The Communist Manifesto, and all the other true history of communism which people like to pretend never happened, communism is a good idea.

Hey!

I included that it required a vacume and perfect world to work!



I'm just saying there's plenty of "evil" inherent in any system involving people.

- - - Updated - - -

Corbin makes an excellent point, and something I try to integrate into my shopping -- knowing where my stuff comes from and how it was produced. Buying locally is the surest way to do that, though some things simply are not made by my neighbors. Yup, no locally made light bulbs at this time .... heh. Anyway, when I started paying attention to where things were coming from and who was getting "the shit end of the stick," it was surprising how many things I decided weren't necessary. Life became simpler, but better imo.

So, here's the paradox for me. For some people, maybe the shit end of the stick is better than no stick at all. If I am sinking in quicksand, maybe I am grateful to grab onto the shittiest stick end ever rather than go under. I comfort myself that trying keep things local is shining in my corner of the world and to just have faith that others are doing the same elsewhere. Sorry if this sounds sappy.

And so, I don't know what the answer is. Communism makes a lovely theory but humans continue to have the same innate selfishness that has plagued us for as long as I am aware. Most of the people I know and love are simply not psychologically able to live without having more than they truly need. There is no point at which it is decided that "I have enough." Seriously, millionaires concerned about having "enough" for the future. No matter where life lands a person, most display an innate insecurity. This is why capitalism is exploitative -- not the system, but the insecurity of the players. History shows that communism is also exploitative, simply through a different mechanism. Anything resembling the utopian ideal of enough for everyone requires a fundamental change in human nature I guess. Good luck with that.

Besides she said it pretty well herself...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

The good part, for me, is that I know I never did the WRONG thing. (Meaning of course what would have been wrong for ME). I never flickered on my ethics even when it cost me bigtime. And I'm pretty proud of that. It's probably my biggest accomplishment in life.

(Frank Sinatra sings "My Way" in the background, fade to black.....) LOL

LOL - yes, that's the point I was driving at. If you want to be rich, here's how you do it...

Devote your life to making it. Job choice is based on how much cash is paid, not job satisfaction. Throw away the novels on your reading pile, and read book after book after book on economics. Make every buying decision based on what the object will be worth later, rather than what you want now. Read Wall Street Journal and Forbes, instead of The Life of a Hedge Witch.

But... most of us would rather live a different life, one we like better.

People make choices. Nobody has it all.

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Hey!

I included that it required a vacume and perfect world to work!

LOL- yeah, I have to get my digs in when I can.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

People make choices. Nobody has it all.

This would probably spin off well into another topic, but "having it all" is very subjective....I feel quite blessed at this stage of the game & some of my wildest dreams have managed to come true. But - you may not be the least bit interested in what I've got or what I've done, just as I may not have any desire to do what you've done, etc. I guess the key is to feel happy & centered in your own accomplishments, no matter how meager or grandiose they are on the scale of all that is possible.

[wisp]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

I'm ok with never being rich, but to Hawkfeather's earlier point, it used to be that you could work an entry level job and be comfortable, and decide that this level of income is good enough to get you what you want out of life. There used to be more options between rich and barely making it by. When some people are working multiple jobs just to survive, there's something wrong with the system. And yes, you could choose jobs solely for the money factor but what if your goal in life is simply to live with happily with a reliable source of food and bill-payment? That is harder to come by.

I have lived on $3/week to feed two people. It's not fun. And sure, we survived, but it was hard and unpleasant and, honestly, if we hadn't received help from family, I'm not sure we would've come out of it any time soon.

None of this is to say that Capitalism is wrong or evil, but it's just as flawed as the rest of it. I strongly believe you can't go too far in either direction. In everything, moderation, including economic and social systems.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

I think pure capitalism and free market capitalism are not sustainable. The few profit, but it's still fairly volatile.

I'm for a system that includes rules and regulations. Basically, what we were doing in the 20th century (and what is still practiced in Canada and a few other countries) wasn't perfect, but I think it's the best possible scenario. There need to be rules. Not excessive rules, and people should definitely be able to operate privately and profit. HOWEVER, they need to contribute to society in the form of taxes (I love minimum taxation laws!), pay a fair wage to their workers, not do anything that's obviously dangerous to society or the local environment, etc. There also need to be rules governing the financial side of things.

I think we, as consumers, do have a responsibility to uphold as well. We need to stop buying from the lowest possible bidder and be more discerning about which companies we buy from. HOWEVER, this is impossible for a lot of people with the current wage crunch, and it's impossible with so many outright lies out there. Wage-wise, people need to be earning something relative to what they earned about 20-30 years ago. I think that this is where a lot of the frustration about capitalism is coming from.


I dislike communism immensely. I live in a former communist country. My boyfriend was born in said communist country. He still believes in some of its ideals, despite being 5 years old when the Berlin Wall fell. Some of them aren't so bad, but some of them just sound horrific to me. I guess I just like the idea of equal opportunity and freedom of choice. None of these really existed on the other side of the iron curtain. Communism preaches equal assets, but there's a huge difference between equal opportunity and equal assets. Equal opportunity doesn't mean that everyone has the same earning potential....it means that everyone has the chance to access the careers and education they want to, at least to their best possible ability. I don't feel like this was really the way things worked in the former East. It seems like you had some choice, but for the most part, you got slotted into things. If you came from a background, you probably stayed in that background....you weren't really paid that differently from everyone else, but you didn't have much of a chance to change your lot in life and do something completely different. Now, you get slotted into either trades or university fairly early (early teens), but at least if you really, really wanted to change the course of your life, you'd have the opportunity and ability to do so.
Freedom of choice is also something I couldn't really do without. Not many people from the "West" who support communism realize this, but there wasn't much choice in communist countries. Without a lot of outside trade, things were pretty limited, and the whole mindset doesn't really leave much differentiation in what was available. I think the market mentality and product differentiation has gotten a bit insane lately (calm down...we don't need liquified butter for those who are too lazy to wait the 5 seconds it takes to melt it on a skillet), but I'd prefer that to the alternative. In the GDR (East Germany) there were a lot of things you just couldn't buy. Like, A LOT A LOT. Want an avocado? Nope. Want a board game? Nope. Want a style of clothing that wasn't one of the ones circulating at the time? Nope, unless you can draft the pattern and make it yourself. Some things were banned, but most just simply weren't available. Some people thought this was fine, and some even lament the amount of choices we have now and find it excessive, but I think a lot of people felt something was lacking. If they didn't, you wouldn't have 8 gajillion cases where people tried to imitate Western products on their own (seriously...people made their own monopoly games, micky mouse t-shirts....all that jazz).
Anyway....

[Maria de Luna]

Re: The Death of Capitalism...

I personally would like to see more balance between just capitalism and communism. We don't have to be on eigther extreme, and it seems unnessecary to try. I like having choices, and I like going to the store and having more options than are even remotely nessecary. I like knowing where my food comes from. But I want the ability to use a doctor for things which I need a doctor for. My options with the VA are limited and I can't always see a doctor, because it isnt something they cover. I would love to be able to have an eye exam and get a new prescription for my glasses, but I can't really afford it. I would like to make better than a non-living wage for the work I do, I would like to be able to work for a company which valued my coming to work every day. I would like to be eligible for full-time benefits, especially since I already work full-time. But to keep our contract we need to remain the lowest bidder for it. we have to be the cheapest, or we are going to lose our contract. No one wants happy employees anymore, because there are enough desperate, or nearly desperate people to replace us if they suddenly fired us all one day. There is nothing protecting people from being exploited, and we arent even as badly exploited as people in other countries are, but we want to buy the stuff that exploited workers manufacture, not the stuff where people are treated fairly. I do believe that there is a class of people in this country that we hold in reletive poverty, whether intentional or not, by supporting lowest bidder growth and refusing to regulate companies, we encourage a lack of reasonable growth in the job market.