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    #16
    Re: Evil

    Evil is hard to pin down. I am not saying that there is not such a thing as evil, I just feel like it is harder to define than I like to thing it is.

    I like to think that someone who wants to kill their infant is evil, however if it is a severe mental condition influencing these thoughts ( and actions,) is the person evil or is the condition evil? Or is the person broken? and can they be fixed?
    I had a teacher who kept a whole bunch of gerbils, and very occasionally they would have babies, and invariably the babies would all get their little baby heads eaten off by other gerbils. They weren't evil, (I don't think so, they were gerbils, and I am not sure they qualified as rational enough to me to be evil.)They were just gerbils who felt that their habitat did not have the resources to support more gerbils.
    A man who drinks to stave off the depression, and drinks too much and goes home and beats his pregnant wife because he can't wrap his mind around what he is doing. Is he evil? was it the drinking that made him act evilly? If he is not drinking, and not beating his wife, is he still evil? Is the booze evil?

    What is evil? Where do we draw the line?

    I asked a friend what he thought evil was, and his response was, "Intentional cruelty, without remorse." I decided that this was a smart friend, and frankly I liked his answer better than my own piles of questions.
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    But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
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      #17
      Re: Evil

      anunitu, how did I miss that? It is the sort of adorable thing my husband would say, though I suspect his would be more along the lines of "Evil is when you take the last cookie even though you know you've already eaten more than I have." He doesn't mind flirting with Ms. Metaphysics over dinner, but, unlike me, has enough sense not to take her home for after dinner drinks.

      Yes,Tylluan, there is always context, and yet there are also jumping off points. When I read that interpretation it gave me pause and caused me to reconsider my ideas and experiences. It isn't something most people spend much time thinking about, and I am no exception. I was simply ready to take a little walk and reassess what I think I think. (I used to say "what I think I know" -- Ha!) While there are some things in the book with which I have issues, her assessment of Christianity's vilification of one of the balancing forces is not one of them.

      So, reading Aeran, Psyk and Maria left me with this -- Perhap evil requires rationality -- or free will? Then, does evil exist outside of human experience? This ties in with the idea of true-to-nature being inherently good, but who is to judge what is or is not true to nature?

      "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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        #18
        Re: Evil

        Originally posted by nbdy View Post
        anunitu, how did I miss that? It is the sort of adorable thing my husband would say, though I suspect his would be more along the lines of "Evil is when you take the last cookie even though you know you've already eaten more than I have." He doesn't mind flirting with Ms. Metaphysics over dinner, but, unlike me, has enough sense not to take her home for after dinner drinks.
        That's totally me! Ms. Metaphysics (I'm going to have to steal that...) is my Mistress. I hold her dear to my heart although, sometimes, I think she is out to get me.

        Originally posted by nbdy View Post
        Perhap evil requires rationality -- or free will?
        As I read the other posts and your questions, I further and further elaborate my mental answers, but I must agree with Marie De Luna's friend, "Intentional cruelty, without remorse," which makes evil an act of free will, but I do not see acts of evil as so much 'rational'. Free will and rationality are two different things. Intentional cruelty is not rational but an act of will- what's the logic in harming someone that does not deserve it? It seems only a stupid or mentally ill person would do such a thing- or an irrational person.

        Originally posted by nbdy View Post
        Then, does evil exist outside of human experience? This ties in with the idea of true-to-nature being inherently good, but who is to judge what is or is not true to nature?
        I think evil outside of human experience is just exaggerated annoyance. Like when crows chase away Turkey Vultures and hawks for no good reason. But this lends a hand to the point of intention, because crows have been known to be more intelligent than almost all other sky creatures, and intention is an act of intelligence in my mind, because instinct isn't intention. Instinct is acting for survival and that's it, whereas intention is acting for a reason greater than survival, such as joy or dominance for the sake of dominance.

        I don't think being true to ones nature is inherently evil because it is their instinct, whether it is a mercenary on the job or a pervert stalking the local college. If they don't know that they are doing is wrong it can't be consider evil by the definition of "intentional cruelty" whereas, although the pervert is naturally attracted to younger individuals and into some creepy kinky things, but knows it is not safe for them or the person they fantasize about, then it is an act of evil because they are ignoring the fact they know it is bad and harming an innocent and continue to take action anyway. The same goes for the mercenary. If the mercenary knows their target is just a family man but makes more money than the mercenary's employer and this job is just to even the monetary playing field and kills the man anyway, then I would call this evil because the target is not a dredge on society or national threat, just an obstacle to a greedy CEO and the mercenary is only doing it for a paycheck.

        Who is allowed to judge ones nature? "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." In other words, I have no idea, since we all determine things for ourselves.

        This thread me of a story Joseph Campbell told about personal universes. He was talking to a yogi and how students would ask "how can I be enlightened with all the suffering?" The yogi answered, "because it is your universe that allows you enlightenment. If you are having a wonderful day and your neighbor is not you have a choice to let it affect you or not. By staying happy no matter their mood, you are in control of your universe. If you allow their attitude to bring you down, you are now in their universe."

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          #19
          Re: Evil

          Originally posted by nbdy View Post

          Yes,Tylluan, there is always context, and yet there are also jumping off points. When I read that interpretation it gave me pause and caused me to reconsider my ideas and experiences. It isn't something most people spend much time thinking about, and I am no exception. I was simply ready to take a little walk and reassess what I think I think. (I used to say "what I think I know" -- Ha!) While there are some things in the book with which I have issues, her assessment of Christianity's vilification of one of the balancing forces is not one of them.

          So, reading Aeran, Psyk and Maria left me with this -- Perhap evil requires rationality -- or free will? Then, does evil exist outside of human experience? This ties in with the idea of true-to-nature being inherently good, but who is to judge what is or is not true to nature?
          nbdy - I didn't mean my post as any sort of criticism, and it's perfectly true that there are things in Dion Fortune's writings that really seem to have taken flight from reality sometimes. I remember in one of her books (probably psychic self defence) she claimed that Buddhists practised human sacrifice or something like that.... I think you chose a good jumping off point bTW - and such discussions are always very useful precisely because they force us to think.

          I dread to think how I might have answered this question about forty years ago
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            #20
            Re: Evil

            A simple definition of evil might be: He did it,it is evil,I did it so it must be good. Perspective..and we tend to define it personally like, I blew up the evil empires Deathstar....From the deathstar side "Those evil rebels blew up our beautiful Deathstar"
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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              #21
              Re: Evil

              Originally posted by anunitu View Post
              A simple definition of evil might be: He did it,it is evil,I did it so it must be good. Perspective..and we tend to define it personally like, I blew up the evil empires Deathstar....From the deathstar side "Those evil rebels blew up our beautiful Deathstar"
              But what were they doing with that death star? What was the end result of it being blown up? That's the question that matters. Some poor war widow who lives on an Imperial controlled & indoctrinated planet, who lost her storm trooper husband working on the death star, might think the rebels are evil because as a result of their action she lost her partner, but what she doesn't realize is that the death of those working onboard the Deathstar would most likely be outwighed many times over by the lives saved by it's destruction. So while specifically in terms of her experience she might understand it as evil, the overall reality would paint a different picture. I mean if someone comes up to you and says 'pressing button A will result in 1000 people dying, but not pressing it will result in 1 000 000 people dying' it's kind of a no brainer, and that's more or less the situation the rebels were in there, putting aside the wider political and narrative context. Not many decisions are absolutely free of harm, you just have to do the best to pick the one which causes the least.

              But that's just me. I'm big on utilitarian morality.

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                #22
                Re: Evil

                I believe evil is highly subjective. Personally I shy away from the term. It seems to inherently imply some kind of universal principle or blanket rule(s) that can be made about what is objectively wrong and should be punished or stamped out or whatever; and the more I learn, the more concepts like "good" and "evil" become useless before a far more complex and intricate world.
                I mean don't get me wrong; I'll react right along with the next person when I see something wrong being done! But when it comes to discussions like this, I also know it's only wrong within a certain scope. Philosophically speaking, I believe "evil" doesn't really exist in the grandest scheme of things.

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                  #23
                  Re: Evil

                  I do not believe in good nor evil as existing. I think they are moral concepts to categorize actions. I would have liked to finish On the Genealogy of Morals by Nietzsche and start up Beyond Good and Evil as well before replying to this, but I'm too lazy. Seeing things as either good or evil is like saying there's nothing in between white and black. It has become a filter. Other people's actions pass through this filter in our mind, categorizing and ignoring every ambiguous circumstance that could cloud the filter's decision. Getting rid of this Good and Evil filter is necessary in order to see and understand things in a more real way. Filters such as this, and pride, envy, pain, love, morals... All of these hinder our perception of what is true.

                  And now that my little intro is done, my views on that quote:

                  According to this quote, Evil is what is perceived to be inconvenient to the situation in which the "evil" occurs. Seems fair enough. It defines evil as a "misplaced force". The hard part of redefining such a vague term with something quite precise, is that people have to accept it. Given this definition the use of evil as a word could change drastically. It would mean an action or a situation which occurrence hinders, stops or reverses the intended progress or course of action of something. I could agree to this, and not some kind of mystical force of darkness and horned thingies flying around.
                  Last edited by Sean R. R.; 19 May 2013, 08:06.

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                    #24
                    Re: Evil

                    Psyk, I have pondered this a while and could think of only one circumstance where cruelty could be considered rational, and that is when the perpetrator receives a good feeling when others suffer. That makes a definition of human evil: Intentionally causing suffering for unwilling others for no other reason than personal enjoyment. hmm. maybe. It seems too narrow, but it's pretty good.

                    Can other creatures on earth perpetrate evil? I don't know. I have no doubt that animals have free will. I have watched too many evaluate and make decisions unrelated to survival.

                    I think I am running out of steam -- finally. Still not so sure that evil requires motive. p.s. you do know that your mistress has whips and chains, right?

                    Tylluan, I did not take your comment as criticism, but did want to be sure that my intentions were understood. Forty years ago I probably would have answered, "The Devil," but I was still in elementary school and deep in Baptist / Pentecostal indoctrination programs.

                    Regarding Utilitarianism -- I don't buy it. If we plant a poisoned seed, we grow a poisoned plant. The fact that the plant grows is a perverse success because it will bear poisoned rather than good fruit. It is the illusion of time that permits the delusion that something good will come of a poisoned seed. imo, of course.

                    As far as rejecting the idea of universal "truths," or that something perceived locally must be produced locally -- If the universe is a coherent system with its own life rhythm and design, then some things are going to support those rhythms and designs (healthy/good) and some things are not (unhealthy/evil). It can be reasonably argued that what is good for the whole is good for its parts, and what is bad for the whole is bad for its parts. There would then exist, in the universal sense, evil forces that we do not understand but that will hurt us. I am not saying that is how it is, just pointing out that it is not necessarily an idea steeped in religious dogma.

                    Sean, I read Beyond Good and Evil in high school as part of my Christian recovery program. At the time I was riveted, and then life went on an it was just another opinion rattling around in my head. In the end it will be you who distills your life experiences and decides which assumptions work best in your life, so don't sweat your reading list too much.

                    "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                      #25
                      Re: Evil

                      I'm not really sure how to properly interpret the OP's quote but here's my take on what I think when I hear "Evil" and "Good". I didn't read most of the thread so take my words with a grain of salt.

                      I personally do not believe in evil or good energy. I believe in light and heavy energy. Light energy is what someone can use, absorb, digest as it were. Heavy energy is the opposite. What one perceives as heavy energy will not be consumable by said person. However, what may be heavy for one person, may be light for another. This sort of translates to "Evil" and "Good", I suppose in the context of what one person may find evil, may not be so for another person.

                      (meh, I'm at work and can't really post anything longer at the moment... I shall try to revisit my post after work.)
                      �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
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                        #26
                        Re: Evil

                        Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                        I do not believe in good nor evil as existing. I think they are moral concepts to categorize actions. I would have liked to finish On the Genealogy of Morals by Nietzsche and start up Beyond Good and Evil as well before replying to this, but I'm too lazy.

                        Just to give some info...

                        The main thrust of On the Genealogy of Morals is that originally, the difference was between good and bad - and that, of course, meant some particular thing was good or bad for ME (or someone - "bad" can't exist without a subject and object). However, as individuals and institutions gain power, they are able to pull a psychological trick - they convince others that what originally meant bad (implied: for someone) is turned into a concept called "evil," which means "bad for everybody, all the time." Then, the original trick is forgotten, and things described as "evil" no longer mean "bad for specific people" - what is called evil is, essentially, the result of power asserted over the minds of others.

                        Please note: Don't carry this to the absurd extreme I often find people doing in which horrible things become horrible entirely dependent on the thoughts and feeling of the observer. What it does mean is - to an existentialist of the Neichzsche variety - is that you can not talk about evil without also talking about context - context tells whether an action is good or bad, not some cosmic definition of evil.


                        Beyond Good and Evil expands on this idea, and explains how it works in greater detail, with some good info on how to avoid falling into the moral trap, how to recognize it when you see it, and some speculations on how and why it has been useful to do this throughout history, it's effect on civilization, etc. (plus a lot of other stuff - Neichzsche had a lot to say), and what happens when you reject this idea.

                        If you want to see these ideas expressed in his most outrageous style, read The Anti-Christ. This is Neichzche as his nastiest, and he pulls no punches, and it's fairly short.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #27
                          Re: Evil

                          Wow, Juniper, that is an interesting perspective. Mashing that into the way I organize the world I would probably consider it in terms of resonance rather than light v. heavy, but I can see this as a useful way of looking at things. It blends well with the behaving-according-to-one's-nature idea as well.

                          Driving home it occurred to me that a difficulty I have had with this discussion is trying to decipher a single, comprehensive understanding of something that actually has more than one meaning. At the micro, interpersonal level, I think the "Intentional cruelty without remorse" definition is sufficient, but at the macro levels, be it societies or galaxies or whatever, I think probably the idea of things out of balance makes more sense, a conflict between what is and what we would have it be -- or is there a "natural" balance toward which we incline? I don't know.

                          "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                            #28
                            Re: Evil

                            There is no good and evil in the world. There is only what we think of as "good" and "evil" on the basis of our outlook and perception of the world. As for someone to be good - for the other person is evil and vice versa.
                            All this is conditional. There are opposites and polarity.
                            Wind is bad or good? It's good or evil?
                            Because you can not call the same evil hurricane?
                            It simply is. It can cause damage that is bad. But it's not evil. And that is not good.

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                              #29
                              Re: Evil

                              I don't believe in true good or evil, only in light and dark, which are principles unrelated to the traditional western standpoint of "good = light, evil = dark." I believe that dark and light are universal dualities present in the divine, and that it's natural for humans to embody one of them, or a grey area inbetween.
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                                #30
                                Re: Evil

                                Yin-Yang black - white, male-female, solid-soft. Opposites and polarity. One complements the other. Composing the picture.

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