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    Rede

    The Wiccan Rede states, "Do as ye will, so long as it harms none". Does this mean physically or through magick? Excuse my ignorance I still have lots of learning to do haha.

    #2
    Re: Rede

    From everything I've studied, it means no harm at all-physically or otherwise- to yourself or others. This includes animals, plants, etc.

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      #3
      Re: Rede

      The wiccan rede is exactly as it sounds. To truly follow the rede you cannot hurt anything in any way. This is the reason why it's really very difficult to follow it. People naturally hurt one another, usually by accident. In general wiccans regard the can rede to mean "I shall not intentionally harm any living thing, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually or otherwise and shall do my best to prevent my unintentionally harming of others"
      Circe

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        #4
        Re: Rede

        Since harm avoidance is practically impossible, and my view of ethics is largely a pragmatist one, I view the Rede as more about harm reduction than harm avoidance. Its text, "An it harm none, do as ye will" can be interpreted multiple ways, even from such a simple phrase. My personal interpretation is that, if an action isn't harmful, it's free range; if an action does harm people, it's ambiguous. Most modern Pagan ethics are utilitarian, so that's the approach I take. Who is harmed, for what reason, how so, and what is the end result? These are the questions a utilitarian approach must take into account.

        As for whether it means physically, magically, or spiritually? All of the above. It's a general ethic, and not really even the most important ethical rule either, and it is meant to apply to all of one's action, whatever the form.

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          #5
          Re: Rede

          I'd recommend reading the following essays from Proteus Coven (they are a Gardnerian tradition):





          as well as this: http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede.shtml

          ...and then maybe do some thinking on the subject and some meditation, and some further reading, and then answering the question for yourself, as it applies to you.

          I don't follow the Rede, but I did at one point, and I fully disagree with the idea that the Wiccan Rede is an impossible standard of never doing any harm. Instead, I think that the Rede calls upon us to look at the full spectrum of consequence (even the unintended ones) and measure whether or not something is worth the harm that it will cause before proceeding. The Rede says that if there is no harm, then do whatever the heck you want to do...but since there is always harm, it is a recommendation of being measured in your actions to mitigate harm. And yes, I think that means mundanely and magically.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

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            #6
            Re: Rede

            I grew up in a family of witches and their dictum was 'Wishes and curses are like old hens, they always come home to roost.'

            Meaning that everything, for good or ill, has the potential to come back and bite us in the bum.

            So if we make a magical mess - we have to clear it up.
            And if you have ever tried cleaning up a magical mess, you'll realise it's best avoided in future.
            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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              #7
              Re: Rede

              Why do people always focus on that one phrase? The Wiccan rede says so much more than just those few words.

              Anyway, my answer is "both."
              �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
              ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
              Sneak Attack
              Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

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                #8
                Re: Rede

                I agree with thal, no matter what you do. it will couse harm somewhere, thats the problem with using magicks, as the old saying goes "with great power, comes great responsibility" before you do any magic you should see all or as many as you can of the potential concequences and decide if the magick is justified, example.

                from "how do i tell the difference thread"
                its a dry season, crops are dying and you conduct a rain spell, theres a massive down pour that effectivly ends the wet season the crops are well watered and grow magnificently everyone in the town village whatever eats happily and healthly, a sick child even gets better from plenty of water and plenty of food. happy ending no harm done right?

                Wrong, that massive rain pour forced all the worms and other underground creatures to come above ground those that didnt make it drown those that did were eaten by birds or other creatures, and some were lucky enough to survive to get back to the ground.

                No matter what we do or what our intentions are some "evil" will be caused somewhere simply because thats life. somethings die so other things live. like rabbits and foxes, cows and grass, people and cows.

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                  #9
                  Re: Rede

                  I think it's pretty straightforward. Before doing something, just ask, "Will this, in any way, harm someone, including me?"

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                    #10
                    Re: Rede

                    Originally posted by Greenlife View Post
                    The Wiccan Rede states, "Do as ye will, so long as it harms none". Does this mean physically or through magick? Excuse my ignorance I still have lots of learning to do haha.
                    Let me preface this with I am not now nor have I ever been a practitioner of Wicca. As such please feel free to disregard my thoughs on this subject.

                    That said in discussions i've had many would cite the rule of 3 and it's usage with the Rede. Specifically one has to understand that any action has three potential avenues of return. Not return 3 times what was sent though which was an important aspect to the discussions.

                    So a person spins a love spell for instance and purpose of discussion. The spell has the potential to negatively influence them upon their ethical level or mental level. A potential of later feeling they did something that conflicts with their ethical position and perspective in regards to magical influence. Basically they have a guilty concious for their actions. Causing them internal suffering or self inflicted suffering as they question their own morales, ethics and values. Yet these are very much social constructs and permissions.

                    The spell results in a physical negativety as well. Thier own morales and ethics dig so deeply into their mind that it in turn causes them to become physically ill from the negative pondering. Perhaps as simple as a headache or stomach ache to a great as some physcial severe injury. Perhaps as debilitating as ulcers created from stress and it's physical manifestation within and upon the body. Figure they basically cause themselves some sort of physical injury to manifest whether it be from return or actually setting themselves up for it.

                    The third potential point of return is upon their spiritual / psychological level. This one is close to the mental / ethical aspect but the negativity is much higher before a divine presence or their psychological self. In many ways more debilitating in that it is a sense of failure, deceipt, desception or failure of a higher sense of ethics and dogma. This one very much a construct of a higher sense or purpose that guides and defines right / wrong outside of the social and cultural norms.

                    So by that definition it becomes a question of can you live with yourself, your community and your spirituality once you cause or create some action. Harm changing in scope and concept against multiple values and criteria / results. It also gives everything a scale of inpact and influence and how one might view it. It also allows justification of a negative on one aspect in order to meet or fulfill another aspect. Think of the person who spins a justice spell for someone they belive has caused a greater harm which by design is nothing less than forcing a change upon a persons freedom of choice regardless of what thier choice may have been.

                    Hope this helps but as I indicated I am not now nor have I ever been a practitioner of Wicca.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                      #11
                      Re: Rede

                      The Rede applies both mystically and physically. Exactly how it applies and how absolutely it is interpreted varies with the Wiccan and I'm not one so I'm leaving that issue alone.
                      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                        #12
                        Re: Rede

                        I always thought the Rede was an idealistic contradiction. Almost anything you do magically or even physically will in some way have a negative impact. It might not always be obvious or large but it is there. It's part of the whole balance we pagans tend to get all stuck on.

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                          #13
                          Re: Rede

                          I see it as if you take the principles of cause and effect, choice and consequence, above and below, God and Goddess, within and without as the guiding forces behind the Rede- or any ethical guide or mythological story- the riddles make more sense.

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                            #14
                            Re: Rede

                            Originally posted by Kahlenda View Post
                            I agree with thal, no matter what you do. it will couse harm somewhere, thats the problem with using magicks, as the old saying goes "with great power, comes great responsibility" before you do any magic you should see all or as many as you can of the potential concequences and decide if the magick is justified, example.

                            from"how do i tell the difference thread"


                            its a dry season, crops are dying and you conduct a rain spell, theres a massive down pour that effectivly ends the wet season the crops arewell watered and grow magnificently everyone in the town village whatever eats happily and healthly, a sick child even gets better from plenty of water and plenty of food. happy ending no harm done right?

                            Wrong,that massive rain pour forced all the worms and other undergroundcreatures to come above ground those that didnt make it drown thosethat did were eaten by birds or other creatures, and some were luckyenough to survive to get back to the ground.


                            Nomatter what we do or what our intentions are some "evil"will be caused somewhere simply because thats life. somethings die soother things live. like rabbits and foxes, cows and grass, people andcows.
                            Explained so much better than I ever could have.
                            Last edited by SisterSojourn; 02 Jun 2013, 10:51.

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                              #15
                              Re: Rede

                              Thanks, and its just a view from watching life.

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