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    Questions about the Holy Trinity

    I am somewhat confused on how this exactly works. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are aspects of God right? Is Jesus basically his own father since he says that he said "I and my Father are one."? Or was that just a metaphor? Is Jesus supposed to be the son of God or is he God himself? How can he be both? Especially when they talk about the End of Days, they say that no one knows, not even the Son, only the Father, but if Jesus is God than he IS the Father and he should know as well shouldn't he? I figure that if Jesus is the son of God, it couldn't be the same as the Hebrew God, since Jesus and his Father are more passive and forgiving than God in the Old Testament. Not to mention Jesus mentions new rules to follow as well. If he is the son of God it might have been someone that humans confused for the Hebrew God, or this God was claiming to be the Hebrew God.

    This is something I was wondering about and wondered if anyone can explain this.

    #2
    Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

    I feel like I need to turn to face a camera and say "my time has come!".

    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct entities, but they are one substance. That is, they are all God, and each is completely God, but each is distinct in their role and their presence. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are therefore not three different names for God, but together listed are one name for one God, (Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc). However, they can still act distinctly from each other, different parts of one being all working together as that being.

    Now that is a massively simplified explanation, and I want to make clear there are REAMS of writing on this topic. And your second big question moreso, in that there is more disagreement on how to answer that question. There are a LOT of different Christian denominations, not all of whom are trinitarians, and not all of whom agree on the nature of the OT and NT God's relation to each other.

    I see Jesus as being sent to deliver his message when people were capable of listening, that the old Testament was preparation for his coming, and that God thought humanity might listen to the message finally. I'm not going to go pick out the verse at the moment, but at one point Jesus mentions God gave the Israelites laws God didn't even like because their hearts were too hard to follow God's word.

    But that's just one poorly explained explanation. Some people don't think Jesus was divine, or believe in a trinity. Some people think the Old and New Testiment Gods are different Gods. Some people think God changed its mind and decided to be less of a jerk. Some people think that God tried to convince people to be nice and they just kept being jerks in his name, so he sent Jesus. Some people think that God chose the Isrealites to be his chosen people, and protected them jealously in the OT, but decided to open himself to all of humanity in the NT and this is a much more loving and inclusive God.

    So, I can't give you a straight answer, and heck the deeper I delve into my faith, I might change what I believe, and probably will, but I hope this helped.
    hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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      #3
      Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

      Awesome response, Malflick! Alienist, so many people in history have asked the same questions.

      Just on your point about the changing nature of God...I really wondered about the personality of God changing so much between OT and NT. There are some stark contrasts there. What helped me with this was to not see the Bible as the infallible Word of God. It was much more helpful to me to see the Bible as a collection of writings by inspired authors describing human responses to God and the evolving understanding of the nature of God. You can see the understanding of God's nature change from being a tribal god to a universal god. It has been said that the teaching Jesus brought could not have been accepted by the Jews if he had risen to ministry any earlier than when he did.

      The new rule I think you are talking about is in John 13:34 when Jesus states: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another" (NIV). This isn't really a new commandment, as Jesus states in Matthew 22:34-38 that love for God and others is the fulfilment of the Law and teachings of the Prophets. It would be interesting to know what that the Hebrew/greek word that translated as our English "new" would be. It might have a certain nuance that doesn't translate so well.

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        #4
        Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

        The idea of the trinity never existed when the bible was written. I believe a couple hundred years or longer afterwards, theologians were debating "what" the christian god is and came up with that concept.

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          #5
          Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

          Three is a powerful number that goes back ages- Isis, Osiris, Horus -Mother, Father, Son/Earth, Underworld, Celestial Realm or Shiva-Parvati-Ganesha- Consciousness, Energy and Journey.

          I read somewhere that the Father represents the Masculine, I forgot what the Son represents (sorry) and Holy Spirit represents the Feminine. It might have been Christian Mysticism or Gnosticism.

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            #6
            Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

            Originally posted by toxicyarnglare View Post
            The idea of the trinity never existed when the bible was written. I believe a couple hundred years or longer afterwards, theologians were debating "what" the christian god is and came up with that concept.
            I do believe this is a very important point that you have brought up. Early Christians used to fight about that idea. Jesus himself, according to the Gospels, never told his followers that god is made out of the father, son and holy ghost and that the three are one.
            [4:82]

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              #7
              Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

              Originally posted by Alienist View Post
              I am somewhat confused on how this exactly works. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are aspects of God right?

              This is something I was wondering about and wondered if anyone can explain this.
              As defined in the Nicene Creed, the three are distinct persons but part of the same being. They are in "hypostatic union", meaning that they are of the same singular, divine substance. They are the same deity, just different forms in which that deity presents itself or acts.
              That's how it's supposed to go, at least.

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                #8
                Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                Like the monad theory? Monad breaks off into Dyad then Dyad breaks into Triad, etc, now we have humanity.

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                  #9
                  Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                  Originally posted by toxicyarnglare View Post
                  The idea of the trinity never existed when the bible was written. I believe a couple hundred years or longer afterwards, theologians were debating "what" the christian god is and came up with that concept.
                  That's true. Theophilus of Antioch and Tertullian are two of the theologians credited with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity between 181 CE and 220 CE (according to my Bible College notes). I wonder what texts from the Bible theologians used to come to their decisions? The word isn't used in the Bible, but with the inclusion of the NT eludes to it. At a guess, I'd say John 10:30 I and the Father are one (NIV) could be one example among scripture. There are also many references to the Spirit throughout the NT (1 John 5:6, Acts 5:3) and the OT (Genesis 1:1).


                  It's worth noting, too, that Christians believe that like God the Father, Jesus is also eternal and existed before he was incarnated (John 1). There are references to the Angel of the Lord in the OT and some Christians believe that angel is Jesus pre-incarnation. One good example is the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Daniel 3).

                  PsykhikosAnarchosNautikos is right on track with 3 being a powerful number. Numerology abounds in the OT. Special numbers include 3, 7, 40, 12 among others. In Judaism, the number 3 is used in literary patterns and can take on different meanings depending on the context. 3 can be used as a number of finality/completion (compare 7: completion/perfection) and when used in relation to a length of time, can have connotations of spiritual preparation.

                  The doctrine of the Trinity is a balance between Modalism (one god and three personalities/roles. eg one woman can be wife, mother, daughter) and Tritheism (three separate gods that agree). The three persons are somehow so close in union, but are still distinct. I think a study of each might help you to grasp the differences and similarities so you can come to your own conclusions, if that's what you desire. Here is a good place to start http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine...dt/trinity.htm This website makes a good distinction between 'person' and 'nature.'

                  Just on a personal note, the best way I can describe how the Trinity might be applied is in love. God is love, the Son is the expression of that love, and the Holy Spirit is my daily connection with and understanding of that love.

                  If you're not sure on the role of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit is the person of God who has work as an indwelling Helper (John 16:7, John 14:17). This help can include: Regeneration of a person's spirit (2 Cor 5:17), the Christian's assurance of acceptance of God (Romans 8:16), a seal or mark of God's commitment to us to complete the process of salvation (Ephesians 1:13), the one who gives a sense of adoption (Romans 8:15) and the one who leads us into sanctification/separation unto God (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
                  Last edited by Azvanna; 15 Jun 2013, 19:56.

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                    #10
                    Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                    These are good and reasonable answers. I appreciate it a lot. I always questioned this. I always thought it was strange that it is said God sent his only son Jesus to Earth, but Jesus is supposed to be an aspect of God so really he sent himself. I also thought that whoever is father is, it couldn't be the Hebrew God, since you'd think that God came down to Earth and contacted humans like Abraham, Noah, Moses, David and Solomon, he would say "Yup that Jesus fellow is definitely my son, so you Jews go worship him now." He already showed up and interfered in human affairs, so you'd think he'd clarify that that was his son, so the Christian God I think is someone similar to Yahweh but different. Also Christians don't seem to have a problem with certain foods like pork, unlike Jews.

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                      #11
                      Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                      I also thought that whoever is father is, it couldn't be the Hebrew God, since you'd think that God came down to Earth and contacted humans like Abraham, Noah, Moses, David and Solomon, he would say "Yup that Jesus fellow is definitely my son, so you Jews go worship him now." He already showed up and interfered in human affairs, so you'd think he'd clarify that that was his son, ...
                      According to Christians, Yahweh did. Twice. Matthew 3:13-17 recounts the baptism of Jesus by John the martyr, John the Baptist. "16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Then again at Matthew 17, recounts the story of the Transfiguration. This is a really important story for a Messianic Jew. Matthew 17:5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”

                      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                      Also Christians don't seem to have a problem with certain foods like pork, unlike Jews.
                      This is because rightness in God's eyes has to do primarily with attitudes. Paul wrote to the Corinthian church and said to them: Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." (1 Cor 10:25, 26). These verses are included in a chapter written to discourage the Corinthians (yum) from living piously. He exhorted them to be guided by their own individual consciences while also taking into consideration their guest/host's consciences. He wanted people to be true to themselves, but to be respectful of other people's beliefs as well. Remember that before his conversion, Paul was a devout Jew in the Pharisaic tradition. Eating what you like is a teaching located in the gospels as well: Jesus says to his disciples in Mark 7:18,19 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

                      Personally, I maintain a vegetarian diet (most days!), but I understand that other people don't. I do not think any less of them, it is their choice just as my diet is my choice. There are many things that God leaves us to decide for ourselves, and diet is one of those things.
                      Last edited by Azvanna; 24 Jun 2013, 23:50.

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                        #12
                        Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                        (also, to add to Azvanna's post, in acts 10:13 Peter is told by God that he is allowed to eat the unclean animals flat out. Its part of God's new covenant. Basically, God makes covenants with humanity, promises on how he'll treat us if we follow rules he/she/it sets out.
                        This list might be incorrect because I only just woke up, but if I recall, these are God's Covenants, each one being the new rule of YHWH, a progression of law:
                        Covenant with Adam (broken)
                        Covenant with Noah (success!)
                        Covenant with Abraham (probably the most famous. It worked out for Abe.)
                        The Palestinian Covenant (This stated that if the people followed God's way, they would prosper, and if they didn't he would scatter them. This one was also broken.)
                        Covenant with Moses (worked out pretty well.)
                        Covenant with David (Broken, didn't work out.)
                        The New Covenant (Jesus!)

                        The New Covenant is, in this line of thought. YHWH's latest and best promise to humanity. With it Christians are (supposed to be) freed from the burden of Jewish Purity laws, so we don't have to follow Leviticus and Deuteronomy anymore. That doesn't stop a lot of people from still following them however.... Also it gives us the whole "Jesus died for our sins, and will give us eternal life" mojo I'm so stoked about :P)
                        hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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                          #13
                          Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                          Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                          I also thought that whoever is father is, it couldn't be the Hebrew God, since you'd think that God came down to Earth and contacted humans like Abraham, Noah, Moses, David and Solomon, he would say "Yup that Jesus fellow is definitely my son, so you Jews go worship him now." He already showed up and interfered in human affairs, so you'd think he'd clarify that that was his son
                          Not quite. You have to look at the full historical picture. Late Second-Temple Judaism saw the world they lived in as decayed, sinful, and desperately in need of divine salvation. The time of the Biblical patriarchs and later Jewish kings was different; they saw it as a time when God and the Hebrews lived relatively securely in the covenant. They saw their people, and the world around them, as having "lost their way" so to speak. Christianity comes out of this social context, and claimed to be the thing that would set them back on the right path. Not long into its first generation of leaders, it expanded that message to include all people.
                          Long story short, they didn't see the world as having needed Jesus. They didn't think it needed to have God the Son become incarnated and known to humanity, before the first century CE. In theologically neutral terms, it's the development of social movements over time, and religious dogma forming to explain the discrepancies between the contemporary social climate and that of the past.

                          Also Christians don't seem to have a problem with certain foods like pork, unlike Jews.
                          A result of that aforementioned expansion. It decided to be inclusive, and that meant dropping certain elements of Judaism that gentiles found uncomfortable. Circumcision, the dietary laws, and celebration of certain Jewish festivals were dropped over time.

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                            #14
                            Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                            If that's the case that Yahweh did actually appear, there probaly wouldn't be any Jews and they'd pretty much all convert to Christianity, if Yahweh himself showed up and clarified that was his son. Then again, the bible was written by humans not gods. Of course just because it says it was Yahweh doesn't mean it actually was. I mean Paul and Barnabas were confused for Hermes and Zeus just because they performed some miracles for the Greeks. The Spirit may not have been THE Hebrew God. The humans might have confused it for God or that it was claiming to be Yahweh. It just seems strange that the same God who have us Jesus was also the one who flooded the Earth, gave the land of Caanan to the Jews, and cursed Adam and Eve for eating a piece of fruit. Yahweh, while well meaning, was jealous, aggressive and strict, unlike the Christian God, who more passive and forgiving. There seems to be an inconsitency with these 2 deities that people claim to be the same though. Why would God all of a sudden change his mind, like with pork, saying it's unclean, but NOW we can eat it?

                            Also I always thought Jesus and God were 2 separate entities anyway. It said God gave the Earth his only begotten son which implies the 2 are seperate entities and not aspects of the same God. It may seem off topic but why exactly do Christians even look at the Old Testament? The New Testament is the one that has Jesus and a lot of the rules in the Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians.

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                              #15
                              Re: Questions about the Holy Trinity

                              Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                              If that's the case that Yahweh did actually appear, there probaly wouldn't be any Jews and they'd pretty much all convert to Christianity, if Yahweh himself showed up and clarified that was his son. Then again, the bible was written by humans not gods. Of course just because it says it was Yahweh doesn't mean it actually was. I mean Paul and Barnabas were confused for Hermes and Zeus just because they performed some miracles for the Greeks. The Spirit may not have been THE Hebrew God. The humans might have confused it for God or that it was claiming to be Yahweh. It just seems strange that the same God who have us Jesus was also the one who flooded the Earth, gave the land of Caanan to the Jews, and cursed Adam and Eve for eating a piece of fruit. Yahweh, while well meaning, was jealous, aggressive and strict, unlike the Christian God, who more passive and forgiving. There seems to be an inconsitency with these 2 deities that people claim to be the same though. Why would God all of a sudden change his mind, like with pork, saying it's unclean, but NOW we can eat it?

                              Also I always thought Jesus and God were 2 separate entities anyway. It said God gave the Earth his only begotten son which implies the 2 are seperate entities and not aspects of the same God. It may seem off topic but why exactly do Christians even look at the Old Testament? The New Testament is the one that has Jesus and a lot of the rules in the Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians.
                              Gods appear to people all the time, and get discounted. I see no reason why this should be any different. Only a small group saw the event, so when they went off telling other people they heard God's voice, would everyone have believed them?

                              Would you believe me right now if I told you I had heard YHWH?

                              As for "maybe it wasn't really YHWH" by that logic... Anything could be anything. To reducto absurdism this: I wasn't at the building of the Empire State building, and I have never seen it, so it was never built and is in fact a hologram. We have what was recorded, and the idea that everyone who worships YHWH has been duped is... Well its not an idea I am kind to.

                              YHWH is loving, but also is a god of setting out rules. When people break those rules, YHWH does not look kindly on it. And yet, YHWH is also a God of second chances. Throughout the Old Testament, God gives simple rules to follow, that humans break. He tells Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit that gives the knowledge of good and evil, they do. He gives King Saul Israel, his breaks his rules, David becomes King. David breaks his rules, and loses the chance for his children to reign forever. God tells the Israelites to worship only him, they don't, he takes his protection from their land away. But God never forgets his people, he simply removes whatever it was that was part of the bargain when humanity breaks their half of it. God gives us his only son, and he is killed, bringing the blood sacrifice of our new covenant with YHWH, a covenant not concerned with this world but the next, a final covenant that YHWH will take us to heaven if only we follow a few simple rules.

                              YHWH constantly and consistently changes his mind, and makes new covenants. The fact that the covenants have different rules is par for the course, they're different deals.

                              Jesus was a Jew, and the New Testament very clearly states its the same God as the one in the Old Testament, Prophesies from the OT come true in the new one, and understanding much of what happens in the NT is nigh impossible without the history of the Jewish people in the Old Testament.

                              Lots of Christians do think that Jesus and God are separate entities. There are many many paths of worshiping YHWH. The trinity is a popular one.

                              One interpretation of the trinity, which mainly comes from John, is that Jesus is "Logos" the word of God incarnate. He is an aspect of God made flesh, able to speak as God to all people, on our terms.
                              Last edited by Malflick; 26 Jun 2013, 11:33.
                              hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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