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    Discussing Sorcery

    While I believe in the gods and the great higher force that binds the cosmos I have a hard time understanding the notion of sorcery or magic by human beings especially by those that allegedly practice it.

    In many ways through my struggles in life I like to believe that the gods are on my side or that they are somehow looking out for me, but the notion of human beings acquiring divine powers somehow perplexes me into disbelief. Call me a skeptic.

    I've always regarded such stories as merely symbolic metaphors or mystical stories instead of a literalist approach that believes there are mystical forces that can be conjured up and controlled by human beings through incantations.

    I suppose it's because I am more of a scientific and philosophical kind of pagan follower that influences me to think this way. If anybody can show me another way to approach this I would gladly like to listen to them but until I can find something that invalidates my current belief on this subject I must remain stubborn with my current perspective.
    Last edited by Archimedes; 20 Jun 2013, 07:12.

    #2
    Re: Discussing Sorcery

    Myself I tend to think that the notion of magic in the archaic world is vastly different than today. For instance Medea is listed as an Enchanter because of her abilities with plants and potions supposedly taught by Hecate. So it's magical in one sense but not magical in the sense of spells and personal power behind them. The same might be said for Circe who is a sorceress, but again it's another form of potion and manipulation to cause a change not some spell cast that causes it.

    It also holds with the idea of a familiar, today it can pretty be anything yet in archaic texts it is always a creature or entity that is equated to being some sort of daemon or intermediary creature such as a nymph or imp. So the practitioner is not actually doing anything beyond making a deal of some sort to gain control over or bargin with some creature that will carry out his / her desires and commands.

    For instance the Chaldean school recognized daemons that lived upon the moon and were dispatched by Hecate to either inspire, guide or punish humanity. Now a practitioner might call upon Hecate and ask her to send forth guidance or possibly call upon a daemon directly that may have once been a living human but passed into the realms of the restless dead or other type spirits that failed to make the transition between stages of life. So curse tablets for instance called upon a chthonic type deity or the dead to inflict harm or cause a negative action to befall the person inscribed upon the tablet.

    I think the modern notion of magical practitioners really does not take off until the later dark and middle ages with a great deal of influences from the church. Especially in the capacity of the wizened woman or man who also acted as midwife / animal husbandry or maker of salves or similar items.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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      #3
      Re: Discussing Sorcery

      Have to agree with you Mosno.

      I personally attribute stories of sorcerers and conjurers as merely past individuals that had such a great deal of knowledge around the natural world that towards the ignorant they were perceived as magical beings.

      Their perceived magic or sorcery more than likely was a science unknown.


      To the ancient man or woman the technology that exists today currently is all a form of magic and conjured sorcery.

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        #4
        Re: Discussing Sorcery

        im very very scientific Archimedes, and the way i see it science proves the existance of magic and magic fills in the gaps that science has yet to discover. example.

        science says there is an "energy field" (paraphrases here) on a subatomic level that connects all the atoms in the universe. Science also states that we only use a small percentage of our brain power and that using all of it would unlock abilities the human race could only imagine, faster healing, the ability to minipulate matter and energy, magick or atleast my brand of spiritual magick is manipulatings matter and energy, and everything in the universe is matter and energy.

        course then as monsno said there is herbalism and other arts XD

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          #5
          Re: Discussing Sorcery

          Originally posted by Kahlenda View Post
          im very very scientific Archimedes, and the way i see it science proves the existance of magic and magic fills in the gaps that science has yet to discover. example.

          science says there is an "energy field" (paraphrases here) on a subatomic level that connects all the atoms in the universe. Science also states that we only use a small percentage of our brain power and that using all of it would unlock abilities the human race could only imagine, faster healing, the ability to minipulate matter and energy, magick or atleast my brand of spiritual magick is manipulatings matter and energy, and everything in the universe is matter and energy.

          course then as monsno said there is herbalism and other arts XD
          I agree with you that in a sense of quantum physics there is a lot of the world and indeed the cosmos that we have very little understanding of which leaves us with the unknown or eternal mystery. I would be so bold to admit the very possibility of inter dimensional realms which quantum physics alludes as possibilities. Then there is also very little of our mental powers that we unlock that you mentioned, however until I see a person conjure up lighting from their hands or do a form of Jedi mind tricks I remain the sorcery skeptic by reducing it to fanciful metaphorical stories written by the ancients.

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            #6
            Re: Discussing Sorcery

            I suppose I don't really understand how one can believe in the existence of supposed anthropomorphic "deities" or "magick" beyond the earthly plane, yet not believe that it exists or could be manipulated in this world. Not to disrespect anyone of an Abrahamic inclination, but there seems to be a very Abrahamic conviction in your statement - that somehow human beings are "lesser" than so-called "divine beings". Why is that? Granted, if your personal beliefs attribute humankind to being the product of a Divine Design architected by "God", etc., then fair enough. But if not, why are "earthly" creatures (humans included) so much less capable of influencing these unseen forces?

            Originally posted by Kahlenda View Post
            science says there is an "energy field" (paraphrases here) on a subatomic level that connects all the atoms in the universe. Science also states that we only use a small percentage of our brain power and that using all of it would unlock abilities the human race could only imagine, faster healing, the ability to minipulate matter and energy, magick or atleast my brand of spiritual magick is manipulatings matter and energy, and everything in the universe is matter and energy.
            I also believe in the "energy field" theory - that the tangible world and all of its "matter" is made up of a collection of particles which vibrate at different rates. Science is already pursuing the notion that the activity of the human brain can affect the energetic fields surrounding us. Our brains generate electrical activity - our thoughts generate electrical activity. As has been said many times before - "thoughts are energy", pure and simple. We know that electricity can influence physical matter - why is it such a stretch then to suggest that the brain's own generated electrical fields can influence other electrical fields or even matter itself? I am personally fascinated by Quantum Mechanics and Wave-Particle theory. I do wholly believe that we are on the verge of proving that what some refer to as "magick" to be scientifically valid.

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              #7
              Re: Discussing Sorcery

              If human beings were able to wield such unforseen forces such abilities must of been lost ages ago as there is no wide observable practice of sorcery in today's world.

              I've certainly have not seen or observed any myself where at one point in time I studied the occult amongst other things for six years.

              For me human beings are lesser to the gods where our only gift is our expanded minds, imagination, and innovation a gift acquired only from Prometheus himself for better or for worse.

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                #8
                Re: Discussing Sorcery

                well have you not heard on the hellenic teachings, and you can see divination al over the place, and there plenty of examples of telekenises.
                and what about people that have developed elemental magicks is that not proof for you?

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                  #9
                  Re: Discussing Sorcery

                  What I am saying is that after years of studying many texts and such of the ancient world even trying to dabble myself I have seen no first hand account myself of sorcery or divination by us mere mortals. If somebody has seen something I haven't that they can illustrate in this thread I am open minded enough to pay it some attention. I try to keep a open mind through all of this.

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                    #10
                    Re: Discussing Sorcery

                    Originally posted by Kahlenda View Post
                    im very very scientific Archimedes, and the way i see it science proves the existance of magic and magic fills in the gaps that science has yet to discover. example.

                    science says there is an "energy field" (paraphrases here) on a subatomic level that connects all the atoms in the universe. Science also states that we only use a small percentage of our brain power and that using all of it would unlock abilities the human race could only imagine, faster healing, the ability to minipulate matter and energy, magick or atleast my brand of spiritual magick is manipulatings matter and energy, and everything in the universe is matter and energy.

                    course then as monsno said there is herbalism and other arts XD
                    That thing about the brain is actually not true in the slightest. Source: Snopes

                    Science does not prove the existence of magic because the notion of magic such as manipulation of matter and energy with your mind is generally silly. A Physicist would tell you that matter interacts with different fields and their force carriers. What about that meets your definition of magic?

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                      #11
                      Re: Discussing Sorcery

                      Mind you I'm an atheist. So 'sorcery' is mumbo jumbo to me. But....in this context? Every human commits acts of sorcery on a daily basis. It's the act of doing something the observer doesn't comprehend. Like when you roll down a window to a dog. His mind is BLOWN. Sorcery is just smart people taking advantage of the ones who don't know their trick.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

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                        #12
                        Re: Discussing Sorcery

                        My beliefs on the matter can sometimes be taken as weird, so bear with me here.

                        Personally I believe that human beings may invoke powers or implore deities to work on their behalf, but it takes a particularly gifted human being and most won't be able to do more than little things here and there (a tiny stroke of luck, a tiny touch of misfortune to their enemy, etc.). I also believe the god(desse)s sometimes choose mediator humans to do their bidding and may give those humans gifts superior to their peers, often specific in nature in order to achieve a specific task or set of tasks.

                        I believe no human can be as powerful as a god(dess) - however, I also believe the god(desse)s, rarely (and I do mean rarely, like only every age or so), choose to incarnate into a human body; but in my opinion that body is not exactly human, and everyone around that person will immediately know that they are "different", something infinitely more/greater than they appear...I also believe no human can just choose to become like that, ever - it is the god(dess) who descends, not the human who ascends, to become an incarnated god(dess) (or Buddha, or whatever one prefers to call them). I am a firm believer in tiers of beings, some more powerful and some less - the vast and overwhelming majority of human beings are like a giant herd who chew grass all day, but once in a rare while, someone's horns are a little more magnificent than the rest, their minds a little sharper. Once in a very rare while, one strays from the herd to be something more, and gets more attention from the caretakers, shall we say.

                        I absolutely, firmly believe in magic and its power because I have witnessed it first hand. If I had never seen it I never would have believed it either...especially since I was raised in a culture that believes power belongs either in fairytales-and-fiction or strictly within the Jesus/Satan dynamic. It's all fun and games and banter and debate and fiction, until one fateful day you see a true sorcerer (or shaman, or whatever you want to call it) raise his hand and stir an unpredicted storm from a clear blue sky (not to mention the many other things I've seen). Suddenly shit gets very, very real.

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                          #13
                          Re: Discussing Sorcery

                          I'm a pragmatist. I do magic because it works for me. I could care less if its all in my head, or something divine, or superpowers, or whatever the heck...and I fully accept that it could be any and all of those things, or none of them. But in the end, I only care that what I do works out.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Discussing Sorcery

                            Originally posted by Archimedes View Post
                            If human beings were able to wield such unforseen forces such abilities must of been lost ages ago as there is no wide observable practice of sorcery in today's world.
                            There are vast amounts of reports of modern Yogis and Qigong masters that can do amazing things, bordering on the miraculous. Dr Zhou is a good example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP_0cZS04Q). Sai Baba was said to be able to materialize money out of thin air into his hand. Ammachita is said to be the incarnation of the Divine Mother (I've met her four times, and if you have met her, I'd imagine she was something a little different than human in her presence).

                            I have met a Daoist Wizard (unknown at the time) and he gave me a medical qigong healing- I have never experienced anything like it. I trained with one of his senior disciples and he has shown some very effective 'internal skill'.

                            For those of us brought up in Europe and America, it seems these 'powers' that are written about in the ancient texts seem impossible because they are forgotten practices of natural human ability that were shunned and destroyed by centuries of oppression and ignorance. Not so much in the East. Tantra, Raja and Kundalini Yoga seem to have a lot of very powerful individuals emerge from those practices. Along with Wudang and Shaolin Monks and Nuns, Tibetan Yogis and Bon practitioners, Peruvian and Incan Shamans and even Christian Mystics.

                            I say this because I have experienced the 'magic' from a Native American several times, lessons from an internal martial arts master, a healing from Traditional Chinese Medicine Doctor and experiences with my own involvement in the occult.

                            The one thing about dabbling is that if you read 90% of the time and only practice half hearted, you will get nowhere. Then again, sometimes people pour their hearts into such practices and go nowhere.

                            Besides all the mystical concepts of magic there are other practices that almost seem magical, such as hypnosis, herbal formulas, cold reading, instilling fear (power plays) to name a few practices that caught my eye and I briefly studied for a better grasp on magic and psychokinetic ability. neurology, quantum theory and even aspects of biology help explain magic- a man and woman are hot for each other, they make a few grunts and squeals in a hotel bed and 9 months later the girl is having a baby, the real father is right next to her and the three have a long and healthy life- now that's magic!

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                              #15
                              Re: Discussing Sorcery

                              I think the modern notion of magical practitioners really does not take off until the later dark and middle ages with a great deal of influences from the church. Especially in the capacity of the wizened woman or man who also acted as midwife / animal husbandry or maker of salves or similar items.
                              While you're right that the notion of magic in the way we currently think of it (the manipulation of impersonal forces to create change) wasn't a huge part of classical mythology , it certainly existed within other ancient civilizations. I know the Irish mythological cycles contained examples of fairly archetypal magical effects: transforming the self or another into other forms, creating fire or other elemental effects to do harm, manipulating the weather, etc. I remember reading similar examples from Egyptian mythology, though I can't remember where or how reliable it is, there's also the powers wielded by various holy figures in eastern myths, and of course there's Jesus, who I consider to be one of the best examples of the magus adept (though others won't agree with me I'm sure). Of course that's mythology, so I wouldn't relate it in any serious way to actual real world practice.

                              As for the real world , it's a difficult subject. For years I wrote off the concept entirely because it seemed like wishful thinking, pure fantasy. But then I had a few weird experiences and decided to dig further and further into the matter, and the more I did so, the more I found my original skepticism challenged. These days, while I'm wary about any metaphysical or philosophical speculation about how or why it works, I'm at the stage where I no longer doubt that such things do work in some fashion. I know, for example, that if I perform the Middle Pillar ritual, I'll undergo the physical and mental experience of the energy of the 'divine fire' flowing through my body. I warm up, sweat, I feel surges of pressure and tingling, and if I keep it going too long, my limbs start shaking. Afterwards, I feel energized, refreshed, calm. Does this mean some kind of divine energy or metaphysical force is literally flowing through my body? No idea, I'm not sure if that could even be proved, but it certainly provokes the intended effect. Likewise, I've dabbled with Qi Gong, and occasionally with various forms of practical spell work or other experiments, and they've all more or less produced reliable results which have satisfied me that there's something behind these effects beyond delusion, selective bias or some kind of placebo effect.

                              There are also various accounts of individuals who've performed certain feats which I've investigated to the best of my ability and, while I can't say with 100% surety that they did indeed do what it is claimed that they did, since I wasn't there, I can say that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of or motivation for fraud, trickery or self delusion in these cases, and that if the subject matter were any other and if I started researching it from a neutral standpoint, I'd reach the same conclusion. The problem is that it's such a loaded topic, intellectually and emotionally, most of us were taught from a young age to write such things off as belonging firmly in the realm of fiction, so it can be hard to overcome that ingrained bias and look at the subject neutrally.

                              It's also probably worth looking into the field of parapsychology. Like I'm sure a lot of you, I originally wrote it off as a lot of hokum that had all been disproved back in the 70's, but when I dug further into the research and literature available, I was shocked by the amount of positive results that had been, and continue to be, achieved. We accept all sorts of things to be true on a regular basis which have much less evidence behind them than things like ESP or telekinesis do. Of particular interest to me was the works of Dean Radin, since he's a scientist with a background in statistics, and was originally a skeptic until he examined the evidence for 'psi phenomena' and decided that it was too strong to be ignored. Check these out if you're interested:

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew - a long presentation he gave at Google about his research, really interesting to watch, he examines the evidence for psi phenomena, as well as explains in depth why he believes this evidence has been ignored by the scientific mainstream.

                              http://www.amazon.com/The-Conscious-.../dp/0061778990 - a book of his I picked up after watching the above video, it's on the same subject, but gives a much more in depth look at the various experiments and the results. Somewhat dry, by still fascinating.

                              http://noetic.org/research/psi-research/ - a collection of published studies which he put together as a brief overview of some of the stronger results which exist.

                              In short, I certainly don't think the issue is settled, but I also think we do ourselves a huge discredit by simply accepting 'well, people don't run down the streets throwing around fireballs like they do in video games, so obviously we should accept the party line and write off anyone who believes these things as a nutjob.'
                              Last edited by Aeran; 20 Jun 2013, 23:43.

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