What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

[Maria de Luna]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

Interrestingly enough I am in agreement with Corbin, I think that as a living thing there is a spirit, but no soul yet. I don't personally think that there is a soul if there never was conciousness, I don't think souls wait in line for bodies to inhabit, I think souls develop as body and spirit do. But yeah, Corbin said it much better.

[Jera]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I'm of the opinion that the soul is present from conception, and that after a pre-mature death the soul returns from whence it came (the collective or whatever you want to call it). The soul is what is when all ego, consciousness and personality is removed, and since a foetus has neither then I think it's safe to assume that being a living creature it possesses a soul, albeit one that is not developing as of yet.

[DanieMarie]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I believe in reincarnation, so it's pretty straightforward. It just moves on or channels itself elsewhere.

[wisp]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I'm similar to Danie, I believe in reincarnation as well as a willingly staying in the Otherworld. If a body isn't there for a soul to inhabit it can find another body or chill in the otherworld for a while. Interestingly enough, when I was Christian and we discussed abortion in my classes in my Christian school, the topic of a soul never came up.

[SPhoenix]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

For me, the issue is more of a moral dilemma. I don't KNOW what happens to souls, or when they arrive or depart or any of that. Not truly. I know what I believe, but that's it.

So I have moral dilemma to decide. Which is, basically, which of these errors could I live with?

option A: Treat a clump of meaningless cells like a human being by mistake?

option B: Treat a human being like a meaningless clump of cells and murder him or her by mistake?


For me, option B is simply unthinkable. If I have to choose an option--and we all do-- then I choose option A, hands down, no questions asked. One way or the other, I may be making a mistake. Which one can I live with and sleep at night if I make it? I can live with option A, but I can't possibly live with option B. And since no one at all KNOWS, it's possible we are all making one mistake or the other.

I'm unwilling to make option B my personal mistake. But that's just me. Since there is, in literal fact, no way to know for sure, I have to choose based on which error I can live with.

I'd rather defend the [albeit questionable] right of a clump of cells to turn into a human being, than unintentionally defend murdering a helpless human being. Again, just me. Just the way that I would feel about making that mistake.

But the truth is that we're all choosing the possibility that we can live with. Maybe it is just a clump of cells. Then great! But if that's a mistake, and we've just killed a human being with a soul, then that's not something I can live with. Until I know for sure, I'll pick my potential mistake... better to treat a clump of cells that will turn out to be human, as if it were human... than treat a human being as if he or she weren't human.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I think I perhaps have a more structured notion than most I've encountered.

For me I think some will become the spectral siblings that some people have. For instance I have a younger sister that died within a few hours of her birth. Yet for years I have seen a girl that has always been younger than I am but has aged with me though no one else has seen her that I am aware of. MY younger siblings get a sense of a presence between me and them but other than it being female they do sense much else. Now I admit it may also have a lot to do with the fact I also died once and came close on a number of other occasions so that may have influenced that.

Perhaps a combination but I think some may also fall into the doppleganger position. They have already formed an attachment to a shape and form and perhaps even a family line. As such they may take or force possession of a relative body or spirit causing a multi-personality type situation. Possibly even to he extent where you occasionally find one twin that has in part consumed another but not all the way thus one body is found within another. Given that twins or triples seem to run in some family lines this has always seemed logical to me.

I think some become sort of time trapped and give rise to the ghostly child. Many times a un-bodied shrill cry of a child that hangs upon an area. In places where I know a child was born dead I've heard tales and stories of child cries that have haunted the area ever after. From a Hellenic perspective I think they may fall into the notion of restless dead who failed to transition from pre-life into actual life. As such they may also be bound to haunt a family line until they are given proper offering and prayer to aid them in severing the ties that bind them as a failure of completing the transition phase.

I believe that some will simply return to the waiting place to be re-born into a later family line or different line all together.

Some will be directed to take a certain purpose. This reminds me of the notion of the Rainbow Warrior's in some Native American practices where the notion is present that there are not enough "Red" bodies and they will be born into other races. NOT to be confused with the ______ Child notion of special children such as Indago, Crystal, Star, etc.

Sadly I also think a small percentage will simply cease to exist. Like a bubble upon a lake surface it will float away without attachment until it breaks and ceases to exist. It's energy returning to a basic energy state without awareness or though, Other's simply becoming unfocused and un-formatted energy that will simply exist in a neutral state but potentially being used or manipulated by other's.

[Dumuzi]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

Same thing that happens to souls of people who die after living 100 years.

Souls weren't made to be part of this world forever. It's just a transit.

[Consciousness]

Re: Texas Illegally Passes a Law!

Uhm mm... My spiritual views are going to be different from most people's because I'm an Alchemist, and most people aren't

My view is that, when two thirds come together (1. Spirit, or 2. Soul, or 3. Body) the third is automatically generated.

An aborted fetus would consist of a body (clearly, or there would be nothing to abort), and a soul (in Alchemy, the... Uhm... Emotional feeling about the subject (that which ends up being aborted), but has not yet developed the spirit (the intellectual part of the entity).

The soul doesn't go anywhere because it never had a chance to develop. While this is most likely the opposite of the generally accepted idea that souls floats around looking for a body to inhabit, if you think about it for a moment, you'll see that this idea makes at least as much sense (if not more) as the more common idea.

I loved this view. This is how I also perceive these situations.

[Ophidia]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I believe in reincarnation, so it's pretty straightforward. It just moves on or channels itself elsewhere.

I'm mainly a reincarnationist, but I also believe that there is a wellspring or Divine Source where new souls are 'born' and really old souls return to once they've absorbed all the experiences they can.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I'm not entirely sure souls even exist, but presuming they do, I don't believe you have one until your first breath out of the womb.

[Medusa]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

I'm not entirely sure souls even exist, but presuming they do, I don't believe you have one until your first breath out of the womb.

How come? I mean, that's not the first time they are breathing though.
I can't give an opinion because it will just bother everyone. But I'm finding this thread interesting in what people will make up to ease their doubts.
I don't mean to use the words make up as a snide comment. But we can't call it fact, so it's just made up at this point. Some are beautiful answers. But I just wonder where in your (collective) mind you come up with this conclusion. Even deeper digging has me wonder what percent do you believe that explanation or how much is hoping because the alternative is pretty nil?

Just throwing this out to everyone.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

How come? I mean, that's not the first time they are breathing though.
I can't give an opinion because it will just bother everyone. But I'm finding this thread interesting in what people will make up to ease their doubts.
I don't mean to use the words make up as a snide comment. But we can't call it fact, so it's just made up at this point. Some are beautiful answers. But I just wonder where in your (collective) mind you come up with this conclusion. Even deeper digging has me wonder what percent do you believe that explanation or how much is hoping because the alternative is pretty nil?

Just throwing this out to everyone.

Simple answer? I don't really believe the fetus is alive until it comes out and breathes. But I really don't believe in souls, I think.

[thalassa]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

But I'm finding this thread interesting in what people will make up to ease their doubts.
I don't mean to use the words make up as a snide comment. But we can't call it fact, so it's just made up at this point. Some are beautiful answers. But I just wonder where in your (collective) mind you come up with this conclusion. Even deeper digging has me wonder what percent do you believe that explanation or how much is hoping because the alternative is pretty nil?

First off, I totally agree that *there's no such thing* is a possibility...even an extreme probability.

But, my own experience of pregnancy (which I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before in this sort of discussion)...which includes stillbirth and several miscarriages and was (quite in contrast to a certain person's opinion on the matter) incredibly risky to myself, and my children (although I wasn't aware of that until afterwards)...suggests, at least to me, that there is a time during pregnancy when a fetus becomes a baby--its almost a paradigm shift, and it felt physical--it was perceivable to me...and it didn't coincide with feeling the baby move at all. It never happened with my two miscarriages, but it did with Aurora, and with Chickadee and Sharkbait.

I think that there is something more that nerve potentials and chemistry to consciousness. Whatever that consciousness is, I think that *if the soul exists*, that they are connected. And I certainly don't think that consciousness comes with conception (seriously, anyone here ever checked out a blastocyst?)

[MaskedOne]

Re: Texas Illegally Passes a Law!

Depends on the sect. I think the Catholics will say that the LoH keeps the souls.

<cut>

So, there are days where I just wish I could keep my comfortable delusions. Anyway, since I made a guess on their doctrine, I actually went looking for it. End result, Catholic policy amounts to "We haven't a clue but we trust in Divine mercy".

Or to be more detailed, Catholic Doctrine normally requires Baptism to counteract original sin (please don't ask, I'm far too lazy to touch the subject) and baptizing those aborted has no guarantee of efficiency. Further compounding the issue, the ways around the requirement for Baptism rarely if ever are certain to apply. This makes life mildly complicated so they fall back on the principle that the LoH may place limits on what they can do but he himself has no such limits and they hope and pray that through means unknown to the Church at this time, he claims the souls of the unborn. Least that's what a quick search gives me. If someone has a more detailed answer or an authoritative conflicting answer then I'll take that one.

[Luce]

Re: What happens to souls if they are denied birth?

From a spiritual aspect... What do you (collective, not individual) think happens to those souls that were going to inhabit the body of the aborted fetus? Go back into the birthing queue? I know my terminology probably sounds a bit off, but really... I'm curious. Genuinely curious what people think happens to souls that are suddenly denied their birth by this manner?

Edit: This is a split from an existing topic "Texas Illegally Passes a Law!"

I think they just wither up and vanish.