Parental rights

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parental rights

So who has more rights over their child - the parent or the government? Or is the child autonomous?

IMHO (and anything said here is inevitably IMHO) - DanieMarie expressed half of the equation.

An adult owns his/her body. This is why so many people start out with "what you do to yourself is one thing, but..."

A child also owns his/her own body - i.e.: a child is not the chatel property of the parent (the phrase "my daughter" expresses a relationship, not ownership the way "my tuba" does).

This is based on the idea that sentient beings have a right to autonomy.

Because of our biological history, the care of the little, awkward, inept autonomous beings we call "children" is generally (and with good effect) left to the parents, until such time as the little ankle biters have a reasonable chance of surviving in the wild. Generally, this works out well enough to ensure the survival of the species.

However, when it clearly does not work, because so many people in every human society have strong feelings about "children being harmed" (probably genetic), most societies will try to intervening, in some way. That's where the law steps in.

So the simple formula is:

You belong to yourself. Children belong to themselves.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Parental rights

So who has more rights over their child - the parent or the government? Or is the child autonomous?

The government, through its laws regarding minors. People shouldn't be able to seriously hinder or kill their children through their own stupidity. There have to be some minimal guidelines in place, i.e. they need to go to school up until a certain age so that they can participate in society, they need to have medical care, etc. I don't think parents get to make -all- the decisions, because minors aren't able to make their own decisions, and some parents just aren't reasonable. There need to be some ground rules in place to protect kids from their parents in those cases.


And Corbin said it really well. Children do own their own bodies. However, since they can't legally make their own decisions, there need to be laws in place to protect their rights.

[Ophidia]

Re: Parental rights

So, what if in this case it was the 11-year old girl refusing treatment because of her religious beliefs, and not her parents?

[WinterTraditions]

Re: Parental rights

If its a person above the age of fourteen (where I live anyways), they have a choice as to their own medical care as long as it isn't a serious mental condition (If the person has MPD or Schzophrenia, they can be forced into treatment against their will.)

A person cannot refuse the treatment of another because of their own beliefs. However, if the person needing treatment has those beliefs and actively expresses them, they can avoid any medical treatment. I know this, because I have refused medical treatment before. For an MRI, my doctor wanted to put this fluid/medicine into my body to help 'relax my muscles and make it easier to do the MRI'. I told her I rather not have it done, because of my beliefs, and there was no issue. She couldn't pressure me to do it.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Parental rights

If children own their own bodies, (which I personally agree with), why are they sold into prostitution by their parents, and given away in marriage by their parents, in some cultures and in some parts of the world? It goes much deeper than "should they get a vaccination". I think children ARE largely viewed as chattel. Sad.

[Ophidia]

Re: Parental rights

A person cannot refuse the treatment of another because of their own beliefs. However, if the person needing treatment has those beliefs and actively expresses them, they can avoid any medical treatment. I know this, because I have refused medical treatment before. For an MRI, my doctor wanted to put this fluid/medicine into my body to help 'relax my muscles and make it easier to do the MRI'. I told her I rather not have it done, because of my beliefs, and there was no issue. She couldn't pressure me to do it.

I was told that this was different because it was me as an adult refusing medical treatment, not me as an adult parent refusing to get my child medical treatment.

So I'll ask again, if a child is autonomous, and refuses medical treatment and dies, is that somehow more ok than a child's parents not seeking medical treatment for their child?

[WinterTraditions]

Re: Parental rights

I was told that this was different because it was me as an adult refusing medical treatment, not me as an adult parent refusing to get my child medical treatment.

So I'll ask again, if a child is autonomous, and refuses medical treatment and dies, is that somehow more ok than a child's parents not seeking medical treatment for their child?

It is more okay, because the child governs their body. What happens to it, is their choice, not their parents. Their parents don't own the right to what happens to their child permanently. (In American/1st World society, anyways)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parental rights

If children own their own bodies, (which I personally agree with), why are they sold into prostitution by their parents, and given away in marriage by their parents, in some cultures and in some parts of the world? It goes much deeper than "should they get a vaccination". I think children ARE largely viewed as chattel. Sad.

It's because the entire world isn't as nice (often due to circumstances beyond their control, like massive poverty, or ancient traditions which no longer make sense in the modern world) as we'd like to imagine.

It is sad. Very sad.

That's why questions like the one I initially proposed matter.

My children (thank God) are not chattel. I'd like to see that true of ALL children.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Parental rights

It's because the entire world isn't as nice (often due to circumstances beyond their control, like massive poverty, or ancient traditions which no longer make sense in the modern world) as we'd like to imagine.

It is sad. Very sad.

That's why questions like the one I initially proposed matter.

My children (thank God) are not chattel. I'd like to see that true of ALL children.

I would like a world like that, too. I have seen some things since I moved here, as regards child abuse, that really rattled me. They're so pro-life, though......

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parental rights

They're so pro-life, though......

I don't get the connection. I feel as if you might be taking a cheap shot at me, Hawkfeathers, although I don't think you'd actually do that....

Explain?

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Parental rights

I don't get the connection. I feel as if you might be taking a cheap shot at me, Hawkfeathers, although I don't think you'd actually do that....

Explain?

Oh, no - my view has nothing to do with you!

I simply think there is some connection, at least thought-wise, between being pro-fetus and anti-life. I always have.
I am in no way, nor do I ever, say anything here that is trollish or trying to start a fight....I just have very strong opinions. People have kids they shouldn't. I met a woman here who took in 2 foster siblings. They were both sexually abused since toddlerhood. The boy has already sexually assaulted the girl, his sister. This is all they know. He had to have surgery to repair his anus from what he endured from his meth mom's boyfriend. The little girl spits at people, like a serpent. No one can go near her.

I personally believe these lives, these souls, would have been better off being born at another time.

Yes the bf is in prison already. So I can't shoot him.

But they are all "PRO-LIFE".

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parental rights

You've had some bad experiences, Hawkfeathers. Please, though, don't confuse crazy, screwed up people with rational folk.

The only connection I can see (speaking rationally) between children-as-chattel and pro-life is that a pro-life person says the fetus isn't chattel either.

The folks you've spoken about are not representative of the pro-life side - they are mentally ill, and criminals. Unfortunately, these are the people one remembers - not the sane, caring people I am more used to. I think we all want what's best for the kids, it's just that we have different ideas of what a kid is.

[Medusa]

Re: Parental rights

So who has more rights over their child - the parent or the government? Or is the child autonomous?

The parent is responsible for the child, because the child does not have the mental capacity to understand consequences etc. When the parent is failing miserably and also unable to understand consequences, then someone must step in.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Parental rights

You've had some bad experiences, Hawkfeathers. Please, though, don't confuse crazy, screwed up people with rational folk.

The only connection I can see (speaking rationally) between children-as-chattel and pro-life is that a pro-life person says the fetus isn't chattel either.

The folks you've spoken about are not representative of the pro-life side - they are mentally ill, and criminals. Unfortunately, these are the people one remembers - not the sane, caring people I am more used to. I think we all want what's best for the kids, it's just that we have different ideas of what a kid is.

She'll correct me if I'm wrong (I hope) but I took it as vocally pro-life and behaviorally reprehensible, so that dumping that contradicting world of confusion, pain and misery (as applied to children) for a world where kids were prized for the gifts they are. And not chattel.

Not so much what pro-life represents but the bastardized manipulation of the ideal, to incorporate such things as child abuse and neglect.



EDIT: Or, to be frank, this world is f***ed up.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Parental rights

EDIT: Or, to be frank, this world is f***ed up.

Well, there are some things that are so true you can't argue with them...