Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sources for beliefs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: Sources for beliefs

    Originally posted by Heka View Post
    I've been going through the website that rick sent through, and while I haven't read all that much yet, I already have a question.

    How much of the Heathen and Norse beliefs come from academia, and how much from the poems?

    One thing I read mentioned that there was little evidence of the worship of Odin amount the people, relative to the evidence of Odin in the poems.

    i look forward to being educated about this. And I will read more, I promise.
    Most academia is simply a more indepth look at the Eddas. Like watching DVD commentaries or reading a thesis on the social impact of Batman. The core of heathen belief is mostly myth-based but many people like to study their beliefs a bit deeper with the academia.

    For some heathen traditions there aren't any poems, or if there are, they are very short snippets. Continental Heathenry more often has to rely on ancient and modern academic sources to piece things together.

    The reason Odin is a large factor in the poems is because the skalds told tales for the elite (warriors and chieftains). The goal of the warrior was the immortal heroic deed. Skalds told of these deeds. Heroes must die for eternal fame, and their deaths kept skalds employed as they told tales for the new elite. Since this was the elite, these tales were the ones that lasted the longest. It was a symbiotic relationship. The everyday common worship was a bit different.

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Sources for beliefs

      Heka, are you sure there was little worship of Odin?

      I read that he had his own shrine at Uppsala that the Norse people would offer to, along with other gods and goddesses.
      White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
      sigpic
      In Days of yore,
      From Britain's shore
      Wolfe the dauntless hero came
      And planted firm Britannia's flag
      On Canada's fair domain.
      Here may it wave,
      Our boast, our pride
      And joined in love together,
      The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
      The Maple Leaf Forever.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Sources for beliefs

        Some people will focus on Snorri, and ignore that his claims are corroborated to a degree. We have both the prose and poetic edda's, and we also have Runestones,folklore, and numerous sources written by Romans and Christians. Together, these agree on certain basic details about Germanic and Norse mythology, so there are some things we do know.

        That said, one of the reasons that I shy from the title "Reconstructionist" is because any recreation is bound to be a bit off. Out of all the Europeans, the only ones who preserved records of their pre-Christian religion in great detail were the Greeks and Romans. A sensible Norse reconstructionist would say that the source material provides a core that you can build around, but not the whole religion itself.
        If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Sources for beliefs

          Originally posted by Yazichestvo View Post
          That said, one of the reasons that I shy from the title "Reconstructionist" is because any recreation is bound to be a bit off. Out of all the Europeans, the only ones who preserved records of their pre-Christian religion in great detail were the Greeks and Romans. A sensible Norse reconstructionist would say that the source material provides a core that you can build around, but not the whole religion itself.
          That's why I consider myself more of a "traditionalist" than an all-out recon. The folklore came from observations and the personal ideas of whomever was passing it on, so even a true reconstructionist should see the logic in using what we know as the only a framework, and adding your own beliefs and observations.

          In fact, one Celtic Reconstructionist site admits to using ideas from other religions to patch any holes when absolutely nothing is known about a subject.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Sources for beliefs

            Reconstruction isn't reenactment or recreation. Its a process of bringing the current understanding of the original underlying philosophy to its most modern logical conclusion.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Sources for beliefs

              Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
              Reconstruction isn't reenactment or recreation. Its a process of bringing the current understanding of the original underlying philosophy to its most modern logical conclusion.
              That depends upon the reconstructionist as I've encountered more than a few who try to keep it as close to the ancient or archaic practice as possible. Only changing things that are against current morality such as human sacrifice or animal sacrifice. In many ways not even changing cultural and sociological ideas and perspectives about things such as equality for instance. To bring it to a modern manifestation not being seen as reconstruction but recreation and evolution filled in with material from other practices.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Sources for beliefs

                A "reconstructionist" is simply a person who is utilizing the process of reconstruction. What you described are people with various [i]beliefs[i](recon is neither a belief nor a religion) that took the process in a unique and individual direction according to those beliefs.

                If recon were a religion then a heathen recon would be in the same religion as kemetic recons and hellenic recons. And that's obviously false.

                I don't call myself recon because its not a belief system.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Sources for beliefs

                  Apparently, Wednesday, you haven't met any of the Recons some of the rest if us know... There are bunches of Recons Heathens that I know (personally, IRL, not internet know) who would raid monasteries if they thought they could.
                  I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                  Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                  Clan of my Clan
                  Kin of my Kin
                  Blood of my Blood



                  For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                  And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Sources for beliefs

                    Originally posted by Rick View Post
                    Apparently, Wednesday, you haven't met any of the Recons some of the rest if us know... There are bunches of Recons Heathens that I know (personally, IRL, not internet know) who would raid monasteries if they thought they could.
                    I know that of which you speak.

                    My point, though, is that reconstruction is a verb not a religious sect... even if other recons try to (incorrectly, IMO) act as if it is.

                    It's like running, which is defined as a specific action and process. And people chose where they want to run, why they want to run, how long they want to run (and many different religious practitioners participate in it). Those personal choices and beliefs do not define the act of running, they define the person. Its the same with reconstructing.

                    There are three steps that define reconstructing: Gathering old data, recreating the working information, and then bringing the working information up to date. That's it. Choosing to be racist isn't the act of reconstructing. Choosing to live like an eleventh century viking isn't reconstructing. Those are just personal choices and beliefs of someone who also happens to take part in a process.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Sources for beliefs

                      Originally posted by Doc_Holliday View Post
                      Heka, are you sure there was little worship of Odin?

                      I read that he had his own shrine at Uppsala that the Norse people would offer to, along with other gods and goddesses.
                      No I'm sure there was plenty of worship of Odin, I just read some stuff that said/pointed in the direction (I can't remember exactly now) that Thor was the big one amoungst the little people and that Odin kinda came in later.

                      Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                      Most academia is simply a more indepth look at the Eddas. Like watching DVD commentaries or reading a thesis on the social impact of Batman. The core of heathen belief is mostly myth-based but many people like to study their beliefs a bit deeper with the academia.

                      For some heathen traditions there aren't any poems, or if there are, they are very short snippets. Continental Heathenry more often has to rely on ancient and modern academic sources to piece things together.

                      The reason Odin is a large factor in the poems is because the skalds told tales for the elite (warriors and chieftains). The goal of the warrior was the immortal heroic deed. Skalds told of these deeds. Heroes must die for eternal fame, and their deaths kept skalds employed as they told tales for the new elite. Since this was the elite, these tales were the ones that lasted the longest. It was a symbiotic relationship. The everyday common worship was a bit different.
                      Yeah that's what I figured Wednesday. Cheers.



                      Seeing as I think we've got most of the heathens here, I came across this ( http://www.paganforum.com/showthread...ighlight=eddas ) and was wondering if anyone would be interested in running something like this again? I'm really keen to have someone break down (and debate) the Eddas. It would help motivate me to read them all and teach me more about it.
                      ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                      RIP

                      I have never been across the way
                      Seen the desert and the birds
                      You cut your hair short
                      Like a shush to an insult
                      The world had been yelling
                      Since the day you were born
                      Revolting with anger
                      While it smiled like it was cute
                      That everything was shit.

                      - J. Wylder

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Sources for beliefs

                        I'm open to that!

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Sources for beliefs

                          Originally posted by Heka View Post
                          Seeing as I think we've got most of the heathens here, I came across this ( http://www.paganforum.com/showthread...ighlight=eddas ) and was wondering if anyone would be interested in running something like this again? I'm really keen to have someone break down (and debate) the Eddas. It would help motivate me to read them all and teach me more about it.
                          I'd chip into something like that. It's a big task though lol.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Sources for beliefs

                            I'd be happy to get it started, but I don't have a copy of the Edda's, I wouldn't know where to start (like, I think I've worked out that the Havermal is just a part of one of the eddas? I don't know...). Let alone what translation or anything!
                            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                            RIP

                            I have never been across the way
                            Seen the desert and the birds
                            You cut your hair short
                            Like a shush to an insult
                            The world had been yelling
                            Since the day you were born
                            Revolting with anger
                            While it smiled like it was cute
                            That everything was shit.

                            - J. Wylder

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Sources for beliefs

                              The Poetic Edda is a large body of collated poems and bits and pieces. We could always start with the Havamal, as it's well known and easy to find a copy of online. Of course... there are several sections to the Havamal lol

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Sources for beliefs

                                So the Havamal is the the Poetic Edda as say, Matthew is to the Bible? Like a chapter of a collated work?

                                The link above, took them about a year to get through, so I'm assuming they did all sections. But I just think it would be a fantastic thing to start! I considered reading through the whole existing one, but thought it would take far too long, and it would be better to re do it I thought!
                                ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                                RIP

                                I have never been across the way
                                Seen the desert and the birds
                                You cut your hair short
                                Like a shush to an insult
                                The world had been yelling
                                Since the day you were born
                                Revolting with anger
                                While it smiled like it was cute
                                That everything was shit.

                                - J. Wylder

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X