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    Sources for beliefs

    I've been going through the website that rick sent through, and while I haven't read all that much yet, I already have a question.

    How much of the Heathen and Norse beliefs come from academia, and how much from the poems?

    One thing I read mentioned that there was little evidence of the worship of Odin amount the people, relative to the evidence of Odin in the poems.

    i look forward to being educated about this. And I will read more, I promise.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

    #2
    Re: Sources for beliefs

    I'm probably not the best person to chip in to this, because I'm not reconstructionist and I don't have a big focus on the Lore. But here goes anyway.

    I own and have read both the Prose Edda (Faulkes translation) and the Poetic Edda (Bellows translation) but I haven't read the Icelandic Sagas and I only got partway through the links on Northvegr. I own and have read several academic works (both physical books and e-books). I have a great number of books from non-academic Heathens and Northern Tradition folk. I've read a lot of things on the internet (good, bad and ugly lol).

    My personal practice is not Heathen, and is not Lore based. I appreciate the Lore and the academia, but I appreciate them for what they are... stories and poems recorded well after the conversion of Northern countries to Christianity; or academic works of scholars studying a culture long since past. Academia and anthropology has it's place, but it's still essentially educated guesswork. When I say that, I don't mean any disrespect... I actually have a great interest in anthropology, but the fact remains that we can't prove anything that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago beyond any shadow of a doubt. We're guessing based on what sources we have... archaeological sites, grave finds, carved runestones, jewellery and bracteates, historical accounts from people like Tacitus (observing the culture from OUTSIDE the culture), fragments of poems copied down by Christian monks, and the prose versions of oral stories written by a Christian scholar who was trying to give his colleagues a way to understand the historical beliefs of the populace.

    I think that the recreation of the faith and practices of our ancestors is a noble one. It's just not the way that I form my own practice. My impression is that many Heathens now look to academic sources rather than rely solely on the Sagas and Edda... I have read this from Heathens on several forums. But again, I'm not Heathen so I stand corrected if someone has a more experienced work on that matter.

    Personally I use both academia and the Lore as a supplement only. I read them with the same grain of salt that I read non-academic authors. I don't read any language other than English, and so for some works I'm limited to translations, which each have their own bias and translational inaccuracies. I have a very basic knowledge of Old Norse but that's about it.

    My practice is based equally, if not more, on UPG and PCPG than Lore and academia. I use practices that have no basis in anything written about Northern cultures. I use practices that do have a basis, but the validity of which are controversial and heavily debated amongst reconstructionist Heathens. That's okay by me. I'm not looking to reconstruct the practices of my ancestors... I'm aiming to construct MY practice, rooted in the cultural identity of my ancestors but inclusive of external influences. I'm not the only one doing this.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Sources for beliefs

      I don't have any input on the wider debate, but just on the Odin thing, wasn't he mostly worshiped by the ruling and to a lesser extent warrior castes? Might explain his disproportionate presence in the literature, as opposed to say, archaeological evidence, which due to sheer population ratios would favor those deities with a strong presence among the more numerous lower classes.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Sources for beliefs

        Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
        I'm probably not the best person to chip in to this, because I'm not reconstructionist and I don't have a big focus on the Lore. But here goes anyway.

        I own and have read both the Prose Edda (Faulkes translation) and the Poetic Edda (Bellows translation) but I haven't read the Icelandic Sagas and I only got partway through the links on Northvegr. I own and have read several academic works (both physical books and e-books). I have a great number of books from non-academic Heathens and Northern Tradition folk. I've read a lot of things on the internet (good, bad and ugly lol).

        My personal practice is not Heathen, and is not Lore based. I appreciate the Lore and the academia, but I appreciate them for what they are... stories and poems recorded well after the conversion of Northern countries to Christianity; or academic works of scholars studying a culture long since past. Academia and anthropology has it's place, but it's still essentially educated guesswork. When I say that, I don't mean any disrespect... I actually have a great interest in anthropology, but the fact remains that we can't prove anything that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago beyond any shadow of a doubt. We're guessing based on what sources we have... archaeological sites, grave finds, carved runestones, jewellery and bracteates, historical accounts from people like Tacitus (observing the culture from OUTSIDE the culture), fragments of poems copied down by Christian monks, and the prose versions of oral stories written by a Christian scholar who was trying to give his colleagues a way to understand the historical beliefs of the populace.

        I think that the recreation of the faith and practices of our ancestors is a noble one. It's just not the way that I form my own practice. My impression is that many Heathens now look to academic sources rather than rely solely on the Sagas and Edda... I have read this from Heathens on several forums. But again, I'm not Heathen so I stand corrected if someone has a more experienced work on that matter.

        Personally I use both academia and the Lore as a supplement only. I read them with the same grain of salt that I read non-academic authors. I don't read any language other than English, and so for some works I'm limited to translations, which each have their own bias and translational inaccuracies. I have a very basic knowledge of Old Norse but that's about it.

        My practice is based equally, if not more, on UPG and PCPG than Lore and academia. I use practices that have no basis in anything written about Northern cultures. I use practices that do have a basis, but the validity of which are controversial and heavily debated amongst reconstructionist Heathens. That's okay by me. I'm not looking to reconstruct the practices of my ancestors... I'm aiming to construct MY practice, rooted in the cultural identity of my ancestors but inclusive of external influences. I'm not the only one doing this.
        Thanks Rae'ya. I always value your input.


        Firstly, what is UPG and PCPG? I have never come across these acronyms.

        I have no actual intention of becoming recon (though I love the term Heathen!) but I am interested in where they get their information. I would love to read through some of them (and that's what I'm trying to weed out). I was just really confused by these seemingly contradictory thoughts. I want to read lots, but I don't want to read lots of crap, if the recons don't put any stock in it.

        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
        I don't have any input on the wider debate, but just on the Odin thing, wasn't he mostly worshiped by the ruling and to a lesser extent warrior castes? Might explain his disproportionate presence in the literature, as opposed to say, archaeological evidence, which due to sheer population ratios would favor those deities with a strong presence among the more numerous lower classes.
        My opinion would be that by being poems that were actually written down it would have been for the ruling classes. I was more thinking that Odin would've been more for the ruling classes, where as Thor would've been more understandable to the peasant classes.

        I should probably point out also that all my current learning comes from one or two runes books, but mostly from Stephen Grundy's book "Rhinesgold". That's also the only rune poem I've ever looked at.
        ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

        RIP

        I have never been across the way
        Seen the desert and the birds
        You cut your hair short
        Like a shush to an insult
        The world had been yelling
        Since the day you were born
        Revolting with anger
        While it smiled like it was cute
        That everything was shit.

        - J. Wylder

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Sources for beliefs

          upg is unverified personal gnosis
          ie if I've had a conversation with a divinity then its upg unless the divinity leaves solid evidence behind or both sides of the conversation are witnessed by reliable outside parties

          pcpg isn't an acronym I know.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


          Comment


            #6
            Re: Sources for beliefs

            Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
            upg is unverified personal gnosis
            ie if I've had a conversation with a divinity then its upg unless the divinity leaves solid evidence behind or both sides of the conversation are witnessed by reliable outside parties

            pcpg isn't an acronym I know.
            Expanding on this...

            PCPG = peer corroborated personal gnosis. Sometimes called VPG = verified personal gnosis (though I prefer the former... it seems more accurate to me)

            ie I had the same conversation with the same divinity that you did. So even though there's no 'solid evidence' written down anywhere, we both had the same experience when we live on opposite sides of the world and barely speak to each other.

            I'm in the camp that believes that when enough people have the same or very similar experiences, it becomes verifiable (to a point).

            And when you think about it... at some point every piece of information we know about a deity must have been UPG once upon a time. Then it became PCPG. Then it became 'fact'.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Sources for beliefs

              Best ways of using information:
              Primary sources (ancient poems, texts, artwork, coins etc.) - these are useful but usually require interpretation. Also understanding the context can make a huge difference to our interpretation.

              Secondary sources (sometimes ancient texts about earlier sources, but more often academic journals, articles, websites etc.) These are useful for uncovering the context, but are not incontrovertible. They often contain a great deal of opinion, alongside 'fact' so you need to use them with a certain amount of caution. Also I would strongly advise checking the primary references they are referring to, because some are extremely inaccurate!!

              Remember that what is and is not a fact is often difficult to prove. Sometimes the best we can manage is to say something is likely but not provable. The more extreme the viewpoint, the more likely the author insists that is has already been proved.

              Also - academic authors prior to say, 1960 often wrote from a very colonialist (and sometimes racist and misogynist) viewpoint. Again, bear this in mind. The primary sources they give may be interesting, but the interpretation may be way off the mark.

              Not all academic - or primary - sources are equal. You need to explore them carefully.
              And lastly.... you can have a mountain of evidence, but still be unable to prove your case....

              Good luck!
              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Sources for beliefs

                I'll just add this... the internet is a wonderful thing, but it also allows anyone with a blog to be an 'academic.' And while many ancient texts were actually written down in the post-Christian times, they're still as close to the source as we have. Read EVERYTHING you can find. Doesn't take long before you can begin connecting dots and finding patterns that make sense.
                I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                Clan of my Clan
                Kin of my Kin
                Blood of my Blood



                For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Sources for beliefs

                  I found an interesting page that claims Snorri himself invented a few of the myths in the Eddas. Some of the points actually seem viable.
                  Link

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Sources for beliefs

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    ..PCPG = peer corroborated personal gnosis. Sometimes called VPG = verified personal gnosis (though I prefer the former... it seems more accurate to me)

                    .
                    Just an aside but you might also find it listed as SPG (Shared Personal Gnosis). I see that term used more than VPG or PCPG though that just might be the groups I follow.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Sources for beliefs

                      Originally posted by Chessa View Post
                      I found an interesting page that claims Snorri himself invented a few of the myths in the Eddas. Some of the points actually seem viable.
                      Link
                      That article gets a lot of things wrong. Just go look through the comments, and you'll see links to earlier versions of some of the stories, and holes in the author's logic. I was thinking of just copying and pasting or rewriting some of the posts, bust since you can find them all at the link I'll just skip it.

                      Basically (TL;DR), the author's basic premise that Snorri was filling in the holes "from thin air" is false. He had plenty of sources, they were just not all from the same place, and some of them from songs rather then written stories. And some of the stories the author says didn't exist in a source before him, totally did exist in a source before him.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      one example: the creation myths do appear in the Voluspa, which Snorri in fact quoted to make his version.
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1
                      hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Sources for beliefs

                        There are also several places in the Lore where reference is made to The Lay of So-and-So or the Saga of Such-and-Such, but those original materials have never been found.
                        I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                        Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                        Clan of my Clan
                        Kin of my Kin
                        Blood of my Blood



                        For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                        And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Sources for beliefs

                          Originally posted by Rick View Post
                          There are also several places in the Lore where reference is made to The Lay of So-and-So or the Saga of Such-and-Such, but those original materials have never been found.
                          Also very true. While its hard to judge the veracity of lost materials, us Christians were preeetty bad with destroying things from old religions... Our bad.... And I'm usually inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to them, especially when Lay's were very often not written down since they were often purely part of an oral or sung tradition.
                          hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Sources for beliefs

                            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                            Just an aside but you might also find it listed as SPG (Shared Personal Gnosis). I see that term used more than VPG or PCPG though that just might be the groups I follow.
                            Cheers for this. I've not seen SPG before, but it makes sense. Three acronyms for the same thing... there are probably others.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by Chessa View Post
                            I found an interesting page that claims Snorri himself invented a few of the myths in the Eddas. Some of the points actually seem viable.
                            Link
                            I heartily believe that Snorri fleshed out his Prose Edda with his own agenda... he admits throughout the text that he has an agenda, so it makes sense. But I think the author of this article is taking it a bit far. I'm not the world's biggest Snorri fan... it's part of the reason I'm not a re-con... but I do think that he has merits and I think this author has made some accusations that take it a little too far. Some of the things that she claims are ONLY sourced from Snorri are not... there are poems in the Poetic Edda which reference the same events. Which brings me to my next point...

                            Is she inferring that Snorri also wrote the Poetic Edda? Because that would be a bit ridiculous.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Sources for beliefs

                              Although the Church did its best to suppress heathenism, it often inadvertently tells us a great deal in its own writings. I would recommend the Corrector or Penitential of Burchard of Worms. (Originally I had a link for this, but this is no longer working and so far I haven't found the text online as a free resource - if anyone does, then please let me know!)

                              Burchard was Bishop of Worms and his early 20 volume collection of canon law – the Decretum - dates from 1008. Its nineteenth volume was called Corrector et Medicus and was designed to help priests giving confession to select the appropriate penance. Burchard used material from older penitejntials some dating back to the 7th century – but the fact that this was retains seems to support the idea that these practices were still current

                              Now - used with some care - this is a very useful source. For example, Paragraph 53 asks: Have you observed pagans customs which, as if by hereditary right and with the devil's aid, fathers pass on to their sons even in these times: for instance, have you worshipped the elements, that is, the moon or sun, or the course of the stars, the new moon, or the waning moon whose light you hope to restore by your noise making or aid? Have you used those elements to try to bring you help or to help others, or have you consulted the new moon before building something or getting married?

                              This suggests what might have been going on at that time. Burchard might well have observed this himself, or been told about it - and of course (and this is the weakness of such a source) it might be what he thought was going on based on what he thought he knew about Greco-Roman (i.e. not northern) practices.

                              Still, definitely worth a look!
                              Last edited by Tylluan Penry; 14 Jul 2013, 02:48.
                              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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