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    Human interaction based on looks



    I thought this could be a very thought provoking topic but maybe not a *Debate*... yet.

    Dustin Hoffman talks about his transformation for the role he played in Tootsie and a realization he had when the make up artists couldn't turn him into a "beautiful woman". It's an emotional reaction. Please watch the video and share your thoughts. I'd love to read what you all get out of it.

    I am going to admit that I have never consciously acknowledged doing this before and am going to try and observe my own behaviour when "faced" with people I encounter in the future.
    �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
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    #2
    Re: Human interaction based on looks

    For me, while it's nice to see someone who's a larger name out there speaking out against that kind of bias, I've never really seemed to have that kind of issue with people. Back in high school, and even to this day, I've always been the person that goes and talks to the not so pretty kids, or the ones who just look weird. The only thing that's ever really turned me away from considering talking to people around is me is looking at their actions. The way they carry themselves, and talk to the people around them on a daily basis. Looks don't really mean much to me-its always been about peoples personalities that turn me away
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      #3
      Re: Human interaction based on looks

      I think this phenomena is the same with men as well, but perhaps to a lesser degree. Why do we (even females) want to only interact with beautiful women? Because. If we take the old approach to how women were seen... They were seen as possessions. Would you buy the ugly, broken furniture for you to possess, or would you buy the brand new, "in" furniture? You want to impress the people around you with the good things you have. And because women are/were seen as possessions, you would want to have the best one you could get your hands on. This has to do with genetics.

      Even in the animal kingdom, genetics and beauty are everything. We perceive a beautiful person as having symmetrical features, just like any other animal. That is because symmetry is a key factor of good genetics/health. An animal does not want to breed with an unhealthy animal, because it lowers the rate of health in the children. It's all about evolution, and we are just like that. We want to evolve by mating with creatures of our species that are symmetrical (beautiful) and thus, healthy for child bearing.

      The fact that women have to be beautiful (rather than the man) is a human issue that is due to media and society. Photoshop, I would like to think, holds most of the blame. By spray-painting a picture to look inhumanly symmetrical and perfect, our unconscious minds immediately think that it is possible for a human to be that way, and thus our standards are raised unconsciously.

      Not a single person on this planet can say they are unbiased when it comes to beauty. Nobody. Especially anyone on a forum. The only way you could be unbiased about something like is, is if you cut yourself off from society since birth, and lived without any sort of outside influence. And how possible is that in this day and age? Very impossible.


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        #4
        Re: Human interaction based on looks

        I was going to point out the evolution point.

        I thought I'd also mention how beauty can grow on us. I originally never considered my now husband to be all that spunky, but hell now? Mmmmm not to mention I wasn't into muscles, until he got em.....

        Yep, my hubby's hot, even the teenagers at school think so! Haha
        ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

        RIP

        I have never been across the way
        Seen the desert and the birds
        You cut your hair short
        Like a shush to an insult
        The world had been yelling
        Since the day you were born
        Revolting with anger
        While it smiled like it was cute
        That everything was shit.

        - J. Wylder

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          #5
          Re: Human interaction based on looks

          It was very cool of Dustin to recognize the fact that "plain" females are under-appreciated! I think as we get older, we appreciate personality more, because that youthful beauty which is so valued is very fleeting. It's just one of many stages of life!
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            #6
            Re: Human interaction based on looks

            The fact that women have to be beautiful (rather than the man) is a human issue that is due to media and society. Photoshop, I would like to think, holds most of the blame. By spray-painting a picture to look inhumanly symmetrical and perfect, our unconscious minds immediately think that it is possible for a human to be that way, and thus our standards are raised unconsciously.
            While I'd say, when speaking purely of physical appearance, it applies less to men than women, simply because men gain a larger portion of their social/sexual capital from status and achievement, they certainly aren't free of the ramifications of their physical appearance, society in general and women in particular still judge men in a large part on their appearance. Why do you think so many men go to the gym? Certainly not because they enjoy lifting heavy pieces of metal more than they'd enjoy relaxing with a beer playing xbox. It's a means to an end, the end being better treatment from women. As has already been pointed out, it's all down to genes and evolution, and neither gender is free of this, it just expresses itself in slightly different ways.

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              #7
              Re: Human interaction based on looks

              I'm one of those 'interesting' women that no one approaches. Of course, I don't approach people either, mainly because I know instinctively that no one really wants me hanging around. It's a lesson that began early on in my childhood and has continued to this day. I had a brief window between 12 and 25 where I could get attention by throwing sex around, but my boobs were the center of attention, not my face. That's part of the allure of the internet. Unless I post my actual photo (which I have on here before), no one knows what I look like, and only a few people might care. In fact, on the internet, it's just assumed that anyone claiming to be female is a 40-year old unshaven basement ape

              I'd like to hear the follow-up interview - since Tootsie has Hoffman gone out of his way to talk to those 'interesting' women he encounters?
              The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                #8
                Re: Human interaction based on looks

                I get judged on my looks all the time. I'm a bigger woman (size 14) and tattooed. I get judged by men that I'm easy at times. Or slutty. Or that I have low self esteem because of my size. Then when they try their game of lowering my self esteem by snide back handed compliments to get me in the sack, and I laugh at them, they get confused.
                Satan is my spirit animal

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                  #9
                  Re: Human interaction based on looks

                  You can hardly be that big, I'm a size 14 around my butt (12 on top, except for big boobs). But I guess if we're comparing to sticks.......
                  ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                  RIP

                  I have never been across the way
                  Seen the desert and the birds
                  You cut your hair short
                  Like a shush to an insult
                  The world had been yelling
                  Since the day you were born
                  Revolting with anger
                  While it smiled like it was cute
                  That everything was shit.

                  - J. Wylder

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                    #10
                    Re: Human interaction based on looks

                    I was never one of the pretty ones, even when I was skinny as a stick, (and a was a gangly little thing.) Once I had boobs grow in I was so happy thinking I would finally be considered pretty, and mostly I hid behind my boobs (I was literally in my 20's before they were bigger than B cups.) I have anxiety issues now, (probably did then too,) where I have actual issues being among people. I don't like not having a barrier, it makes me uncomfortable, I like my annonymity in most situations. Honestly, before the military I had trouble speaking to people I did not know at all. I can do it for my job now, but in some social situations where I don't know anyone, I am often so nervous I start shaking, and often start to have panic attacks. I have been told that I am not as ugly as I think I am, but hearing that from your husband, or back in my early 20''s from the guy I happened to be sleeping with at the time, isn't as convincing as it might be. I spent years fighting for the attention of men, mostly sexually, and frankly, I am lucky to have made it out of my early 20's disease free.

                    I think personal image can be damning for some people, eating and sexual disorders, even people who don't think they care about their appearance often do more than they think. Some of the homeless people can be hard to interact with because of how they keep their appearances, and many of them do it on purpose, to keep from being approached or bothered. We will even give them clothes, (and there are some nice ones,) but they don't want to look like a target. We all interact based on how another person looks, no matter what we do, what we say, we are all programmed by looks.
                    http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                    But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                    ~Jim Butcher

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                      #11
                      Re: Human interaction based on looks

                      hmmm see no just interacting with people doesnt really have anything to do with looks for me, i mean i wasnt the most popular kid at school or considering the most goodlooking so i was in the "ugly" rowd so ill talk and be friends with anyone regardless of how the look, hell even personality to a point doesnt bother me for friendship. but i will admit that when it comes to dateing, id only go from talking to actively trying to "intice" (i couldnt think of a better word) a women if i find thing physically attractive. now im not saying the have to be kate moss, weight doesnt mean too muh to me or anything but like winter said its all about health and ill admit im a sucker for it. if i see someone and consider them to be un healthy in some way i wont even bother.

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                        #12
                        Re: Human interaction based on looks

                        Wow. That video is actually really emotional and deep. Quite, thought provoking.
                        [4:82]

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                          #13
                          Re: Human interaction based on looks

                          This is also an issue about culture. In some other cultures a thin woman is not considered attractive,because in the other culture a hefty woman is considered much healthier. Many cultures have different ideas about beauty. I don't know if the "drawn to each cultures view of beauty" is the same in each culture,but it is interesting that someone from a western culture that is considered beautiful in their own culture,"Might" not be considered attractive when in the other culture.
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                            #14
                            Re: Human interaction based on looks

                            Okay I just have to say this - the "it's evolution!" argument is not only horribly flawed, but a slippery slope. I'm sorry but it just does not make any real logical sense, other than as a justification for being shallow about people's looks, and every time I see it I also see right past it to the core of what kind of mindset it's usually used to support. So were we, then, evolved to have the American, or English, or Italian, or whatever cultural outlook on what makes women (or men) beautiful? I mean come on now, let's think about this for a moment, people. Beauty is so completely subjective, culturally and even individually speaking. Oh I know there have been projects struggling to find the so-called median between cultures on what is considered beautiful, and they decided symmetry was the biggest thing, and all of that - but seriously, take one single second to look at the immense diversity of what is seen as "beautiful" and none of that BS holds up for very long. It made headlines in the same way any other junk science does (Coffee is good for you this week! But next week we'll find out it causes cancer!), and it reeked. Time and time again I've seen that sort of thing being latched onto so that shallow people could feel better about being douchebags to everyone around them. "What can I say - I'm evolved, you guys! I can't help it! :awesome: "

                            What I'm trying to say is "beauty" is cultural, conditioned, and/or individual taste (often a nebulous mixture of these factors), not in-grained. Only certain very minimal things are ingrained into our instincts - most importantly, scanning people's faces for like menacing expressions, or noticing whether they appear healthy or not (as in, disease, as in, instinctively don't want to get sickness from people). But when it comes to just appearance in general - boobs, butt, flatchest, fat, thin, blonde, brunette, short hair, long hair, clothing choice - that is aaaaallll subjective.

                            As a woman who spends every single day of her life getting glared at from all directions for being overweight, I can tell you all of those people glaring at me are faaaaar from prime examples of "evolved". I find that the ones NOT staring at me generally tend to show a higher capacity for intelligence. I used to get really upset because all these people were treating me like sh*t. Then I realized - I didn't want their affections. Every single one of those gawkers is about average-or-below in intelligence, and any interactions I might have had with them if I were some kind of smoking hot supermodel would have given me a migraine anyway - trust me, I know from experience. My best friend thinks exactly like me - same general outlook on life, same personality overall, even a lot of the same background - and every time we go out for drinks it's like a social experiment, I swear. She's drop-dead gorgeous and doesn't mind flaunting it, hips swaying, boobs bouncing - and she's utterly swarmed by total idiots. Me, I get the attention of far more smart folks and no-nonsense Jaded Joes. She's gotten angry at me for it sometimes. And I've since realized the most depressing (or hilarious, if you think about it in a certain light) thing about being a smart fat chick is not being unpopular, but waking up to just how many stupid people are really out there. I can walk in, scan the room, catch the glaring, gawking faces, those lips just slightly curled up in visceral disgust - hmm, 85% idiots. Yep, humanity is so totally doomed.

                            As for the video, Hoffman pointed out something very important - but also something that SHOULD have been painfully obvious, and something that really just makes him sound like ten times more of a douchebag to me. I was amused at his little emotional display, honestly. At first I couldn't quite articulate why, but I get it now. It's kind of like saying, "Oh my god you guys. I'm crying right now, omigawd, hang on, hang on, let me stop crying - okay...okay...guys...guys! I just realized. Black people are not criminals! I've been going around with a can of mace for no reason! Oh it just chokes me up so much, I should have known! I'm going to go hug a black guy right now! :dummy: "

                            It's like yeah, whatever - screw you too, Dustin Hoffman.

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                              #15
                              Re: Human interaction based on looks

                              I loved this video a lot.

                              He's right on the ball I think. Looks do play a huge role on how you are perceived as a woman, either way. Good looks can either work for or against a woman. Studies show that attractive women get jobs much easier, but ONLY when those jobs are not perceived as difficult or intellectual. People have a lot of trouble associating attractiveness with intelligence, which is pretty silly when you think about it. Men don't get that kind of bias at all I think. Still, I think being attractive is a huge advantage for women. People make awful comments about unattractive women, both online and offline. So often, I see smart women doing great interviews and making great videos online, and there are loads of comments about how "ugly" she is. So many people just don't want to listen to what these women have to say. One that comes to mind is a video I saw about Rape Culture and a later article about the response it got. The woman wasn't even unattractive...she was average looking, kind of cute even. But so many people said awful things on Twitter about her about how no one would rape her because she's "too ugly." How can people not only fail to hear what this intelligent woman had to say, but also lash out on a SEPARATE network (the video was hosted on YouTube and blogged, I think, and the backlash was mostly on Twitter). And whenever I see criticism online of a woman or her ideas, it seems to just come down to looks. While there is some reasonable dialogue along the lines of "I don't agree with you" or "I think you're wrong and here's why," most of it seems to be "whatever, ur ugly anyway."

                              People are pretty horrible offline too. Being in a foreign country makes me observe it a bit more because I pay attention to people more than I would if I stayed home (I ignore people a lot more now that I've been here 8 years though). Part of it is also that people tend to take some of that anonymity that they have online with them on vacation. I hear English speakers snicker about attractive or unattractive girls all the time, with NO regard for their feelings. They MUST know that most people speak English here. If you've been in Berlin for more than 10 minutes, you know that most people can understand you.

                              As a somewhat attractive girl, I never really felt like my body was mine. I realized a few months ago that I never really had a time in my post-pubescent life where I felt like I wasn't on display. I also got used for my looks a lot before I met the right guy. I don't think it matters how attractive you are. As a woman, you're always judged by your looks and so many men (and even other women) overlook everything else. I'm glad Mr. Hoffmann realized that, and was so public about it.

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