Forced Sterilization in Prison

[thalassa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Ask anybody around here who has children what they think of the idea that they have to ask permission of the government to have one, and be enlightened.

A big fat "fuck you" comes to mind!

Anyhow.

The government doesn't get to tell me not to breed for the same reason that they don't get to tell me that I have to breed. Its called autonomy, and its one of the leading principles of biomedical ethics. If I don't consent to a MEDICAL PROCEDURE, then FORCING me to have said medical procedure is ASSAULT. Period.

It has nothing to do with having babies, and everything to do with governments that used to experiment on their own (an other) populations. Not to mention social engineering, which went oh-so-well with Hitler, et al, that I would prefer not to repeat such hubris again. If that means that shitty people become parents, its the lesser evil, and hopefully CPS can intervene in time.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Thal phrased it much better and more vehemently than I could but other than finding sterilization as a punishment/preventative unnecessary for the specific scenario I outlined, I'm generally opposed to using surgery to punish/control. There are a few areas where I consider compulsory medical intervention appropriate (or at least potentially tolerable) and none of them apply to sterilization at this point in time. None of them even come remotely close and that's unlikely to change in the near future.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

It wasn't until the 1970's that laws began to evolve which restricted prisons from using inmates in clinical trials, etc., without consent. It still goes on (there's tons of research on it), so much more than sterilization is involved here. Perhaps (and this is only my hypothesis) some inmates are sterilized because of drugs they were given, which would likely cause severe birth defects in the future, followed by lawsuits and exposure?

Following the money will usually lead to the answer. Our prison system is quite corrupt, and we all know how Big Pharma operates.

[Heka]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Okay, this may be hijacking the thread, and if it does I apologise, but I am incapable of keeping my mouth shut.
So let me ask, by who's standards? And when's? What makes you a 'good' parent have changed dramatically over the years. Not that long ago not using a, quote, 'firm hand', unquote, when raising your kids was seen as spoiling them completely and thus ruining their chances of ever becoming decent human beings. These days in most of the Western world the opposite is the generally agreed upon policy. Research indicates that one method was no more successful in turning out good caring people than the other one.
Also, some say that the man of the family should be masculine and adhere to masculine ideals, the woman the opposite, so as to give children a firm idea of the structure of gender roles. Others claim that this practice is damaging to children's development... Seriously I could go on and on on this subject.

Hey, I'm incapable of keeping my mouth shut too! Clearly! haha

The who and when is a great point. But I'm not talking about working out who's a "good parent". I'm taking about external factors, such as drug use, income, etc, not the actual intelligence, or demeanor of the person. I'm not asking for a shrink test, it's more about "Do these two people actually have the means to raise a child." The way I see it if we could stop irresponsible people having children (eg, I'm having a kid to get the baby bonus to buy.......) then the world (or at least country this is occurring in) would hopefully get better.

And who should be fined in a case of childhood pregnancy? The girl who gets pregnant? She might not have planned to or even wanted it? The parents? Who may have no control over what their daughter is doing?

Another good point. I think it's like speeding fine you just get sent a bill. If you want to pass it on to someone else that's fine. But one should definitely not be GIVEN money for doing things against the law (if this were the law)

Also, whenever I hear this I get a very cold feeling in my stomach because it sounds so much like the eugenic thinking that was rampant in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th and gave us such lovely things as Nazism, Fascism, Concentration Camps, and WWII. Please understand me correctly, I am not in any way accusing you of having any sympathy for any of these ideologies or advocate these practises, but these are the thoughts that immediately leap into my brain.

yeah fair enough. My only argument to that is that in this day and age we usually throw people like that out quick enough, like in Egypt at the moment.

And to be perfectly honest, when I hear about what some women do to their children, have them taken into care and then just have another baby, I too think, 'couldn't someone please stop this madness?'. But then I can't help but remember what happened the last time someone tried to control who could and couldn't have kids. In Denmark we have some lovely examples from the first half of the 1900 where hundreds of young women were forcefully sterilised and all these particular women had ever done was to act... inappropriately according to the then rules of society. Generally that constituted being out late at night, becoming pregnant before getting married (a big no-no in those days) or even just having a boyfriend, or something else that to most of us today would appear completely innocuous. And when I remember this something in me goes, 'no, just no.'
Because in my opinion, as a society, that would be to high a price to pay.

I've never heard of the Danish example (I'm in Australia, we don't know anything about anyone haha). Sound ridiculous. That was part of the time that we've mentioned up top though, it's not part of today (though by this thread maybe it is...o.O).

And I definitely agree on the high price to pay. This would be too I expect. But I firmly believe that there are too many people in this world. Personally I'm kinda keen for more giant natural disasters. I think mother nature is trying to fight back. Perhaps we should help her.

And I know that's a controversial opinion there, but it's mine.

[Shahaku]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I'm up in the air on this. I think some reasonable restrictions aren't completely useless. All school-age, fertile girls should be required to be on some form of birth control. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also don't think it would be unreasonable to offer tax breaks to people under the age of 21 for not having children, similar to the breaks you get for having kids... I think that anyone on welfare (or any state assistance) should be required to be on birth control, unless of course they are currently pregnant. And I think under these circumstances, birth control should be widely, cheaply available (which is much the case).

However, I don't believe in interfering with personal rights.. I think it's a very slippery slope. But here in America? We just have to many people who take advantage of their ability to procreate. They just don't know what to do, or they want the benefits. They don't care about loving their kids. It's a cultural problem, I don't doubt it, but until we find a way to fix it? Doing something is better than nothing I guess...

[Heka]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I'm okay with the idea of an IQ test. Cause while there are several different standards of what makes a "good parent"....there's also a rather large line that does state "you are seriously too stupid to breed". The people who legitimately think it's okay to throw a child around and pay more attention to stupid facebook games, and other things like that.

If we have to have have licenses to breed animals (which most humans consider to be of lesser intelligence) why are we letting the people who willfully put their children in danger create more children that they can't take care of, or *wont* take care of?

The IQ test answer ain't a bad one, and I see your reasonings, but as I said to MoonRaven, I'm more concerned about external things, that affect your ability to actually raise a child. I'd probably be pretty keen on an IQ test too, but that isn't my first concern.

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I'm up in the air on this. I think some reasonable restrictions aren't completely useless. All school-age, fertile girls should be required to be on some form of birth control. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also don't think it would be unreasonable to offer tax breaks to people under the age of 21 for not having children, similar to the breaks you get for having kids... I think that anyone on welfare (or any state assistance) should be required to be on birth control, unless of course they are currently pregnant. And I think under these circumstances, birth control should be widely, cheaply available (which is much the case).

This to me is another great point. Really, everything I'm saying is just trying to go for the prevention route, not the cure route.

Another big one would of course be EDUCATION.

However, I don't believe in interfering with personal rights.. I think it's a very slippery slope. But here in America? We just have to many people who take advantage of their ability to procreate. They just don't know what to do, or they want the benefits. They don't care about loving their kids. It's a cultural problem, I don't doubt it, but until we find a way to fix it? Doing something is better than nothing I guess...

It's the same in Australia. I mean I agree, if I was told I wasn't allowed to breed I'd crack the shits, but Id understand why. I definitely wouldn't go and have kids anyway.

[Luce]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

When, if ever, should forced sterilization in women be allowed? Why do I ask? Apparently in California, some prison officials have been accused of doing this.


sauce

Now I know most of us want to say NEVER. But let's just throw this out. A woman kills her children. Drowns them and doesn't get a life sentence. Or let's say is found to have munchausen syndrome by proxy. And she's killed, let's say 3 of her children. Is she a candidate for forced sterilization?

1. The thing to remember is that we in America are not much different than our puritan forefathers. Which is to say, hair shirt punishment freaks that think things like involuntary sterilization is a good idea. Fact: until 1985, it was routinely done to poor black people when they gave birth, without even a prison sentence. Links upon request.

2. Given recent events (especially in Illinois), the idea of non-reversible punishments being doled out isn't a good idea, in my opinion. We have a really bad habit of convicting innocent people.

3. Involuntary sterilization is for Nazis. We're supposed to be better than Nazis.

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I'm up in the air on this. I think some reasonable restrictions aren't completely useless. All school-age, fertile girls should be required to be on some form of birth control. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also don't think it would be unreasonable to offer tax breaks to people under the age of 21 for not having children, similar to the breaks you get for having kids... I think that anyone on welfare (or any state assistance) should be required to be on birth control, unless of course they are currently pregnant. And I think under these circumstances, birth control should be widely, cheaply available (which is much the case).

However, I don't believe in interfering with personal rights.. I think it's a very slippery slope. But here in America? We just have to many people who take advantage of their ability to procreate. They just don't know what to do, or they want the benefits. They don't care about loving their kids. It's a cultural problem, I don't doubt it, but until we find a way to fix it? Doing something is better than nothing I guess...

Wow. Just wow.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I'm up in the air on this. I think some reasonable restrictions aren't completely useless. All school-age, fertile girls should be required to be on some form of birth control. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also don't think it would be unreasonable to offer tax breaks to people under the age of 21 for not having children, similar to the breaks you get for having kids... I think that anyone on welfare (or any state assistance) should be required to be on birth control, unless of course they are currently pregnant. And I think under these circumstances, birth control should be widely, cheaply available (which is much the case).

However, I don't believe in interfering with personal rights.. I think it's a very slippery slope. But here in America? We just have to many people who take advantage of their ability to procreate. They just don't know what to do, or they want the benefits. They don't care about loving their kids. It's a cultural problem, I don't doubt it, but until we find a way to fix it? Doing something is better than nothing I guess...

See the problem with birth control is that non of it is perfect, and all the hormonal controls have side effects( some of them quite severe), it also removes some of the burden of responsibility from men, and far to many men try to escape their responsibility as it is.
I would rather see condoms made more available and cheaper.

[thalassa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, that was my reaction too...

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

All school-age, fertile girls should be required to be on some form of birth control.

The right wing would have a cow. Make that a mega-herd of cattle. LOL

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Yeah, that was my reaction too...

I ain't sayin' nothin' 'cause mom'll yell at me again...

[thalassa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

The right wing would have a cow. Make that a mega-herd of cattle. LOL

Lol, as a liberal, I'd have cow....talk about impinging on personal freedoms and personal decision making! Forcing people to go on BC is about as bad as making abortion illegal.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

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Hey, I'm incapable of keeping my mouth shut too! Clearly! haha

The who and when is a great point. But I'm not talking about working out who's a "good parent". I'm taking about external factors, such as drug use, income, etc, not the actual intelligence, or demeanor of the person. I'm not asking for a shrink test, it's more about "Do these two people actually have the means to raise a child." The way I see it if we could stop irresponsible people having children (eg, I'm having a kid to get the baby bonus to buy.......) then the world (or at least country this is occurring in) would hopefully get better.

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Another good point. I think it's like speeding fine you just get sent a bill. If you want to pass it on to someone else that's fine. But one should definitely not be GIVEN money for doing things against the law (if this were the law)



yeah fair enough. My only argument to that is that in this day and age we usually throw people like that out quick enough, like in Egypt at the moment.



I've never heard of the Danish example (I'm in Australia, we don't know anything about anyone haha). Sound ridiculous. That was part of the time that we've mentioned up top though, it's not part of today (though by this thread maybe it is...o.O).

And I definitely agree on the high price to pay. This would be too I expect. But I firmly believe that there are too many people in this world. Personally I'm kinda keen for more giant natural disasters. I think mother nature is trying to fight back. Perhaps we should help her.

And I know that's a controversial opinion there, but it's mine.

Anyone when planning to have a child spends some time considering finances and income, but that should never be decided by the state.
If we use the UK as an example a good percentage of the population lives below the living wage estimate, and in theory can not afford to have children (According to the state) 15+million people would be borderline depending on where they lived in the uk.
I fully support education for those planning on having families to make them more aware of the options available.... As long as it is impartial correct information as opposed to some of the shocking religious/political spam we get hit with these days

[Willow]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I'm up in the air on this. I think some reasonable restrictions aren't completely useless. All school-age, fertile girls should be required to be on some form of birth control. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also don't think it would be unreasonable to offer tax breaks to people under the age of 21 for not having children, similar to the breaks you get for having kids... I think that anyone on welfare (or any state assistance) should be required to be on birth control, unless of course they are currently pregnant. And I think under these circumstances, birth control should be widely, cheaply available (which is much the case).

However, I don't believe in interfering with personal rights.. I think it's a very slippery slope. But here in America? We just have to many people who take advantage of their ability to procreate. They just don't know what to do, or they want the benefits. They don't care about loving their kids. It's a cultural problem, I don't doubt it, but until we find a way to fix it? Doing something is better than nothing I guess...

I agree that birth control should be more widely available to younger people, I know one of the major reasons I didn't look into it seriously when I was a teenager was because my parents were so... let's use a light term and call it "intrusive" that if I ever asked (and the hormonal treatments require parental approval) I would probably have been shipped away in a box. Even if I had simply asked because my monthly cramps were so debilitating I was often left at home for a few days every month because of my inability to walk.

Turns out, my body reacts pretty severely to all forms of hormonal manipulation and that form of birth control is not a viable option for me. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and after researching the side effects and how hormonal treatments actually work.... I'm not a fan of allowing youths who are not yet fully matured (physically and biochemically) to manipulate their body in that way because of the long-term or permanent effects it can have on them.

[Heka]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Anyone when planning to have a child spends some time considering finances and income, but that should never be decided by the state.
If we use the UK as an example a good percentage of the population lives below the living wage estimate, and in theory can not afford to have children (According to the state) 15+million people would be borderline depending on where they lived in the uk.
I fully support education for those planning on having families to make them more aware of the options available.... As long as it is impartial correct information as opposed to some of the shocking religious/political spam we get hit with these days

Anyone planning to have a child does not spend time planning finances and income, unless you count 'What should we spend our baby bonus on?' planning for finance and income... People should, definitely, but not all of them do.

And the financial thing would be similar to job searching etc in my opinion. Here, you can only get some forms of dole payouts if you can prove you are looking for work etc.

And omfgs impartial everything medical would be nice! Lately there has been a lot of hoohaa about christian doctors refusing to give scripts for the pill. *sigh*

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Turns out, my body reacts pretty severely to all forms of hormonal manipulation and that form of birth control is not a viable option for me. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and after researching the side effects and how hormonal treatments actually work.... I'm not a fan of allowing youths who are not yet fully matured (physically and biochemically) to manipulate their body in that way because of the long-term or permanent effects it can have on them.

My doctor mother put me on the pill at age 15, because my pimples were just so bad. I needed the hormonal treatments. I haven't had an side effects (but then I've only just gone off the pill now, at age 22). I trust her to have made the right call. But I do see where you are coming from. Mum stayed on the hormonal pill right up to menopause (instead of surgery etc). Her periods were just too terrible and she has the same acne problems as I do. Which is kinda embarassing for a 50 yo haha