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    Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

    Two questions:

    1) Does anyone know which Vedic deities would correspond to the 12 main Roman deities and 2) what is the term used for the Greco-Roman idea that the gods of peoples they encountered were manifestations of their own Gods?

    Appreciate any input. Thanks in advance.

    #2
    Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

    Unfortunately, things aren't so simple. About the equivalence : I guess than Indra have common point with Jupiter/Zeus, but Mitra and Varuna too. I don't think that roman had a such word, they don't really see other gods like "manifestation" of theirs, the just see them like the same god with other name, or like new gods.

    The pantheon of 12 gods are more Greek than Roman, and while it's true that Roman religiosity had similarity with the vedism, it's not the case of their Greek influences.
    Vedic devas are abstract and faceless powers of nature, totally different from the human-like Hellenic gods. Although Italo-celts, Greeks and indo-aryans have indo-european common roots, they all evolve in very different ways.


    I would add that in ancient Vedism, the gods has a secondary importance. In accord with later (but the earliest) Brahmanic school of orthodox exegesis, Mimamsa, the deva are just manifestation of the veda. They only exist by and in the sacred words.

    Vedism was a religion of orthodoxy "without gods", and Mediterranean paganism was a religion of gods "without orthodoxy". Make a strict parallel between them risk to be very difficult !

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      #3
      Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

      Greco Roman syncretism was the method used by the Greek and Romans when encountering foreign deities. Some of the deities were absorbed and maintained their individual cults. (Isis, Mithras, Lugh, Epona, Cybele etc) Other deities were synced with the Greco Roman gods and then viewed as a different manifestation of that same deity. (Osiris = Pater Liber)

      One thing that you have to remember is that the Roman conception of deity was more of a cosmic force with a hint of personality. Originally it was illegal to depict the Gods in mortal form. However through the influence of the Greek colonies in Southern Italy it became acceptable to use statues during worship. This key view of deity is what allowed the Romans to have such a malleable religion.

      Also the Roman faith was orthopraxic not orthodoxic. They believed that to be a member of the faith you must practice the same ritual formula and share some key beliefs (the existence of the gods). Other than that the individual was allowed to believe whatever they wish. This is why during certain time periods or even in certain cults the view could be either soft or hard polytheistic.

      Lastly as far as history is concerned the vast majority of Europeans are descendants from the Aryans just like the Indians. Although I've seen a lot more parallels drawn between the Vedas and Eddas I don't doubt that they exist in the Greco Roman mythology. I've even had a few Indian friends that have said they admired my religion and were intrigued by how similar yet different some of the stories and aspects are to Hinduism.

      I was having a chat with my 9-year-old son, Ishaan over breakfast.  He happened to tell me about something which was discussed in his class. The topic was something new to me and also very exciting…


      There's a blogpost by a Hindu that might help. Unfortunately this lady has a very very basic understanding of the different facets of Greco Roman deities.

      - - - Updated - - -

      I'm making another post to address this lady's basic understanding.

      Zeus is not the final King of the Gods. Dionysus is His heir according to the myth concerning the birth of Zagreus.

      Hera was also associated with wealth especially by the Romans. Juno Monotea of some spelling like that guarded over the wealth of Rome and the Roman mint.

      Athena was concerned with war for the protection of the polis. She wasn't just about violence. In addition she was also a goddess of craftsmen.

      Reincarnation existed in varying degrees in both the Greek and Roman religions. Initiates into the Eleusian Mysteries were not subject to reincarnation or the Underworld. So in a round about sense Hades only has the power to rule over the ordinary dead. Initiates live in the Elysian Fields and are under the rule of Chronus/Saturnus.

      Poseidon is a god of water too...The Titans are mostly just manifestations of natural forces typically those with the power to destroy or create.

      Hephaestus is also a god of craftsmanship.

      She didn't get this part wrong but I'd just like to make a connection. Ares's mother is Hera and Her animal is the peacock.

      The Underworld is a way more complex issue than the way she puts it.

      The Titans aren't evil. If anything they Gods represent order the Titans represent primal chaos. There also isn't a constant struggle between the two. The Gods beat the Titans but didn't kill Them. I guess if you move away from the mythology and into the mysticism and philosophizing then ya you could say there's a constant struggle.

      Prometheus was punished for stealing not for helping humanity.
      Last edited by Claude; 22 Jul 2013, 10:57.

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        #4
        Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

        I've some correctionx for your post, Claude :

        the vast majority of Europeans are descendants from the Aryans just like the Indians.
        It's a very obsolete belief. Only the Iranians and the north-Indians are Arya. All we can say about Irano-Indian and European is that we belongs to a group (called "Indo-European") with linguistic, social and mythological proximities. Maybe it's because we are all the heirs of a proto-Indo-European people (but not the Aryans themselve), maybe it's just a long interplay, we don't really know.

        Zeus is not the final King of the Gods. Dionysus is His heir according to the myth concerning the birth of Zagreus.
        Only in Orphism. If you read Hesiod Theogony, you will see that Zeus 1) is not a supreme "King", and rule Olympia only because Styx and Hecate let him do 2) have no kind of "successor".

        The Titans aren't evil.
        Only in the Olympian myth. In the Orphic myth (the Zargeus one), there are effectively "evil".

        Prometheus was punished for stealing not for helping humanity.
        It's not the purpose of Hesiod in Works and Days, nor the Aeschylus one in Prometheus Bound... Read back your classics !

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          #5
          Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

          Regardless of which mythologies or which philosophical schools the beliefs fall under they still exist. Even in Hinduism there are divisions of belief when it comes to interpreting the exact roles gods and other beings play.

          Even in the Orphic myth the Titans are not evil. They represent the flawed human form and the temptations that can lead a soul away from its path.

          I really suggest you read between the lines and meditate on the myths. Taking religious texts for base value only limits your ability to understand them.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Scratch that top message I'd like to explain things in more detail.

          Recent studies have shown that the Y chromosome of many higher caste Indians is more closely related to the Y chromosome of European males as opposed to that of Asians or other Indians. If you'd like I can dig up some articles but this wasn't what Masatru was concerned with so we will keep it off from their post.

          There is no central source on ancient Hellenism. The religion varied greatly form polis to polis as well as from time period. With that said I find your interpretation of the myths to be quite linear and basic. Religious stories have more value if you learn to look past the simple words you see. There are greater spiritual truths to be found in these stories. That is why I and many others are of the opinion that the Titans of the Orphic myths are representations of the darker side human nature. Notice how I didn't say the evil side because that is just way too simplified. Also even if you were to interpret the myths as literal fact it'd be hubris to judge the morality of the Gods based on a simple human understanding.

          Now with all that said I'd like to point out that we've really gotten away from the original question at hand.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

            Now with all that said I'd like to point out that we've really gotten away from the original question at hand.
            It's true, but Masaru hasn't yet reappeared, and our beginning of discussion is very interesting (and not so remote to the subject). So, I will continue a bit, but of course, if it embarrass Masaru or the administration, I will stop and present my apologize.

            Even in Hinduism there are divisions of belief when it comes to interpreting the exact roles gods and other beings play.
            You could not say better ! No religion is more divided than Hinduism... In fact, it's not really a religion, it's a bag full of random traditions, sometime connected to each other, sometime not. But our subject here is the ancient Vedism, which was very different.

            I really suggest you read between the lines and meditate on the myths. Taking religious texts for base value only limits your ability to understand them.
            I'm don't very agree with this methodology. At first, we have to keep in mind that all we know about Greek ancient religiosity came from this corpus of text. All attempt to touch it must begin with the study of classical text. If it's not with that, with what else ? Second hand "information" found online ?
            Of course, these text aren't easy and need interpretations, but to interpret something, the first step is to know it perfectly. Try to "read between the line" without the patience to read the line themselves bring only one thing : the invention of a pseudo-interline text, outcome of our occidental current way of thinking.

            Secondly... well, I'm not sure that the term "religious text" is very appropriate for our Greek "religious" sources. They are not "text", they are song and spectacle -that's the most important thing to see between the line-, and they are not "religious" as we can hear that, because the Greek religiosity has nothing in common with ours. They are pure manifestations of the Greek culture.

            It's not about found the Greek religion. Greeks didn't have something like that. It's only about not create an imaginary one...


            About Prometheus : Each time you speak about him, you speak about what Hesiod and Aeschylus said about him. And if you read them closely, you'll see that Zeus is more irritated by gift to mankind than by the robbery.

            About the Aryans : I don't deny the kinship between Europeans and Indo-Aryans, I just said that the "ancestor" (if its not a mutual relation) is not the Aryans. Aryans was just a "small" people of central Asia, who have migrate to Iran and north-India.

            About the Titans : I guess I agree with you. It's just a misunderstanding around the word "evil".

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

              You've pointed out one fact and ignored two others. The fact you pointed out is one that I find most people don't understand and that is that the majority of the myths are poems and plays not theological texts. However you've ignored that several of the myths we have are cult stories and are thus part of the actual religious beliefs at least within that specific cult. The other fact that you've ignored is that we have plenty of commentary on the religious practices of the Hellenes besides the myths. Cicero Socrates Plato and many more wrote about both the beliefs and practices of the Hellenes. And where commentary fails us archaeology saves the day.

              Now then I don't quite like how you are insinuating that by interpreting the myths as allegory I am creating some bastardized version of Hellenism. In fact it shows a flaw in your understanding of Hellenism. As the multitude of philosophical schools point out Hellenes may interpret the Divine however they see fit. Soft polytheist hard polytheist syncretic or traditionalist are all irrelevant to an evolving faith that has no specific guidelines on what a member must privately believe. What typically defines a Hellene both to the ancient and modern practitioners is a belief in the Dodekapantheon your attitude towards the divine and the way you conduct rituals. These things are what define a Hellene and not what they choose to believe.

              The plain and simple truth is that I have the right to either totally discard the myths and rely on commentary archaeological philosophical and personal beliefs. At that same time I also have the right to say they are allegory or pure entertainment. I am allowed to read the stories of my spiritual ancestors and decide these things because Hellenism allows it to be so.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

                TL;DR

                But interesting point on Hinduism not agreeing with its self... DID YOU KNOW? that in Indonesia, Hinduism is an official religion, even though one of the governing laws of the country says 'You shall believe in one god' (not THE one , just 'one'). So Hinduism can be seen as monotheistic!
                ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                RIP

                I have never been across the way
                Seen the desert and the birds
                You cut your hair short
                Like a shush to an insult
                The world had been yelling
                Since the day you were born
                Revolting with anger
                While it smiled like it was cute
                That everything was shit.

                - J. Wylder

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                  #9
                  Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

                  Claude, you're substantially right, and if I looked aggressive, I apologize. The study of classical text are not the only way to understand the ancient religiosity, but they still very important. In the case of Prometheus, for example but, I do not change my mind : All classics make Zeus angry because of the gift made to humanity more than about the theft.
                  But of course, in Hellenism, the belief and the way to belief is superficial, the most important is the cult.

                  Heka : yeah, Hinduism can be seen as a lot of thing, but it is none of theme. We only know a recent fantasist Hinduism, invented by Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Maharshi and other occidentalized Indians ; and for some of us, the ancient religiosity of Brahmans. The religion of the lower Varna are something very far of what we believe to know about Orient.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

                    Originally posted by Claude View Post
                    The fact you pointed out is one that I find most people don't understand and that is that the majority of the myths are poems and plays not theological texts. However you've ignored that several of the myths we have are cult stories and are thus part of the actual religious beliefs at least within that specific cult. The other fact that you've ignored is that we have plenty of commentary on the religious practices of the Hellenes besides the myths.

                    Also, in many cases, the myths that we know (which come from poems and plays) are later versions, which often have conflicting (and sometimes diametrically opposing) versions of one another, depending on the author, the time period, etc. Myths were often changed to make political and cultural points, and, as we know them, aren't a authoritative source of religion.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #11
                      Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

                      Yes of course... But study myths still usefull for penetrate the mind of the Ancients. If it's not, it would be too easy, and not fun at all !

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                        #12
                        Re: Greco-Roman & Vedic Deities

                        Well, Zeus could be said to correspond to Indra or Trita. He is the third son, thunderer, serpent-slayer, found in almost all Indo-European myth. Like Indra, he was generally honored as the chief deity. Some have also associated Eos with Ushas, as there is a strong precedent for a PIE dawn goddess. Other PIE comparisons seem more tentative, in my opinion.

                        Also, if I recall, when Alexander went to India, he described an Indian "Dionysus" that is believed to have actually been Shiva, although one can always argue the spiritual insight (or lack) behind Greco-Roman syncretism.
                        If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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