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    Re: Heathen Q&A

    Originally posted by Shadow Wolf View Post
    Well most Heathens I've talked to have told me that the majority don't believe the myths to be literally true. Sorry if that's not correct.
    There's an old saying, if you have three Heathens in one room, you'll get five opinions...
    I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

    Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
    Clan of my Clan
    Kin of my Kin
    Blood of my Blood



    For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
    And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

    Comment


      Re: Heathen Q&A

      Originally posted by Gunnarr View Post
      Then try and adopt a reconstructionist approach to Heathenry as I do and understand what that connection to your ancestors really is.
      This isn't meant to be an attack or anything of the like (and I apologize if it does sound like one) and anyone can answer the following questions:

      This brings up a question: Does one have to be a reconstructionist to be Heathen? What makes one a Heathen or what determines that one is Heathen or not?

      See, even if it says 'Heathen' in my religion, it's only really because my gods are Heathen and my worldview is Heathenish. Beyond that, I'm recon-derived and fall more into mysticism and magic, so I can't really be anything more than recon-derived. To add the icing onto the cake (as I know how most Heathens act about what I'm going to bring up...), one of my gods is Loki and has been for nearly two years now while Odin is the other god.

      Am I even Heathen because of all that or should I say I'm more Heathen-influenced? Because I don't fall into the umbrella very well. :P
      Wild Witchy Dusk | TwitterMy Art Blog | My Deviantart

      Comment


        Re: Heathen Q&A

        Originally posted by LuciaStar View Post
        This isn't meant to be an attack or anything of the like (and I apologize if it does sound like one) and anyone can answer the following questions:

        This brings up a question: Does one have to be a reconstructionist to be Heathen? What makes one a Heathen or what determines that one is Heathen or not?

        See, even if it says 'Heathen' in my religion, it's only really because my gods are Heathen and my worldview is Heathenish. Beyond that, I'm recon-derived and fall more into mysticism and magic, so I can't really be anything more than recon-derived. To add the icing onto the cake (as I know how most Heathens act about what I'm going to bring up...), one of my gods is Loki and has been for nearly two years now while Odin is the other god.

        Am I even Heathen because of all that or should I say I'm more Heathen-influenced? Because I don't fall into the umbrella very well. :P
        First, your inquiry was very polite, IMO.

        Does one have to be a Recon to be a Heathen? No. Are Recons better Heathens, as the poster you quoted implied? No. Nor does being a non-Recon make one "eclectic."

        What makes one Heathen? That's a bit trickier. Heathenism isn't a religion, it's a lifestyle, it's how one acts and thinks everyday, not just on feast days.

        Personally, I'm here or there as to Loki. I will say he has his uses...

        Call yourself as you are comfortable calling yourself. No one else looks out through your eyes.

        I am not a Recon. I don't want to live in 10th century Iceland. I don't want to be a thrall or peasant working someone else's farm. I like indoor plumbing and air conditioning and not sleeping in the same room with the livestock in winter. I do try to be as traditional as possible, but I live in the 21st century and that's how I approach Heathenism. I've been hailing the Gods of Our Ancestors for 45 years, and in that time I've been called both Nazi-tru and Wicca-tru (on more than one occasion, been called both by the same people). Try not to be too concerned about how others may label you, as long as you know who you are.
        I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

        Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
        Clan of my Clan
        Kin of my Kin
        Blood of my Blood



        For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
        And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

        Comment


          Re: Heathen Q&A

          How common is the belief among modern Heathens that it is Tyr and not Odin who is ruler of the Aesir?

          Comment


            Re: Heathen Q&A

            Originally posted by Shadow Wolf View Post
            How common is the belief among modern Heathens that it is Tyr and not Odin who is ruler of the Aesir?
            Amongst modern Heathens, it is probably very uncommon, if the notion exists at all. There is nothing in the Lore that I can recall that would suggest that Tyr is (or ever was) chief amongst the Aesir. There is a body of archaeological evidence that Tyr/Tiw/Tio/Zio was a sky god and likely the chief god of the people who were supplanted by the Indo-Europeans, and that Tyr was eventually supplanted by Odin/Woden/Wotan, much in the same way that Odin supplanted Ing/Fro Ing/Ingvi Frey (who just as likely had supplanted Njord). Tyr's genealogy among the Aesir is unclear; a case can be made that he is Odin's son; that he is Odin's foster-son; that he is Vanir; that he is Etin. I've seen plausible explanations for each of these. He isn't often mentioned in the Eddas, so there's little help there, and the archaeological evidence consists mostly of place names and a few inscriptions on weapons
            I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

            Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
            Clan of my Clan
            Kin of my Kin
            Blood of my Blood



            For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
            And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

            Comment


              Re: Heathen Q&A

              Originally posted by Rick View Post
              First, your inquiry was very polite, IMO.
              Thank you. I really didn't want to come off as rude or anything.

              Call yourself as you are comfortable calling yourself. No one else looks out through your eyes.

              I am not a Recon. I don't want to live in 10th century Iceland. I don't want to be a thrall or peasant working someone else's farm. I like indoor plumbing and air conditioning and not sleeping in the same room with the livestock in winter. I do try to be as traditional as possible, but I live in the 21st century and that's how I approach Heathenism. I've been hailing the Gods of Our Ancestors for 45 years, and in that time I've been called both Nazi-tru and Wicca-tru (on more than one occasion, been called both by the same people). Try not to be too concerned about how others may label you, as long as you know who you are.
              That sounds kinda similar to how I want to approach it. I do want to try to keep things as traditional as possible but being someone from the modern day, adaptation and tweaking around is going to happen. I'm not looking to destroy the meaning behind the traditional one but more or less looking at how it can work in today's world. I also kind of have a "Yes, Myths/Lore/What have you is important but I think UPG is essential too." approach, but that has always been there and it's just kind of how I function. I'll try not to be too concerned about what others think, I've been trying for a couple of years now so... heh.

              Thank you for answering everything, though.

              Um, hold on. I know a few Heathens have a "huge" problem with Loki so this kind of inspires the question...

              It seems like quite a bit of Heathens seem to carry over the good/evil view from Christianity but I have seemn elsewhere, that the more traditional view is--and I paraphrase this--that the Gods bring order to the Giant's disorder. So, um, is this the more traditional view? If not, what is the more traditional view? And, um, finally, does the good/evil view that seems to be carried on from Christianity harm Heathenry at all?
              Wild Witchy Dusk | TwitterMy Art Blog | My Deviantart

              Comment


                Re: Heathen Q&A

                Just wanted to toss my $.02 in...

                For starters, I'm fairly Jungian in my approach. If someone asked me if the Gods were real, my first question at this point would most likely be, "define real?" I don't think they ever walked the earth, if that makes sense. There are a LOT of different approaches to the Heathen end of things, it's just that the more conservative and/or reconstructionist approaches tend to be *ahem* often the squeaky wheel. A big part of that, since you asked LuciaStar, seems to me to be that a lot of us who deal with the Norse beings, especially those who have had less-traditional beings play any part in their path, often rely on a lot of Unverified Personal Gnosis. That's much harder to verify, fact-check, or assign a value to, and so the easiest and least controversial way to handle it(especially if one prefers to not be labeled a nutcase) is to not talk about it. This goes doubly for anyone who deals with Loki. Fastest way to raise your own personal shit storm I have ever seen.

                Most of our myth sources are from some 200 years *after* Christianity became the dominant religion, well after everyone who had a "die before converting" attitude had already kicked the bucket. Snorri, in particular, goes to great lengths to imply that Loki is the devil, Balder is just like Christ, and that the Ragnarok has already happened, paving the way for Christianity. If you take it at face value, his writing is full of Judeo-Christian values.


                My personal theory is that this is why those of us who left the more strict American Christian sects seem so drawn to Heathen practices. It feels a lot more normal. There's a lot there that's familiar turf. The heavy emphasis on personal responsibility without handing everything over to God(s) is also very much appreciated. I think, though, that there are a lot of people who hold onto that familiarity like a security blanket, and never reach into the nuances that make Norse mindset and culture ultimately foreign territory. Thor becomes an even cooler Buddy Jesus, endlessly bashing heads of the vile Jotun and thwarting Loki's evil schemes...a paragon of Caucasian masculinity with beer in hand, who would not be out of place saying "'Git 'er done".

                Those types usually ignore the goddesses, I find, unless it's to show Freya in a cheesecake pose and then tell you that you're uptight and repressing a goddess of sexuality if you have issues with that.

                Pet peeve? Moi??? Whatever gave you that idea...

                /personalfeministsoapbox

                This is why most people who don't fit the stereotype in at least a couple of ways tend to be quieter.
                Great Grandmother's Kitchen

                Comment


                  Re: Heathen Q&A

                  Originally posted by LuciaStar View Post
                  This brings up a question: Does one have to be a reconstructionist to be Heathen? What makes one a Heathen or what determines that one is Heathen or not?

                  See, even if it says 'Heathen' in my religion, it's only really because my gods are Heathen and my worldview is Heathenish. Beyond that, I'm recon-derived and fall more into mysticism and magic, so I can't really be anything more than recon-derived. To add the icing onto the cake (as I know how most Heathens act about what I'm going to bring up...), one of my gods is Loki and has been for nearly two years now while Odin is the other god.

                  Am I even Heathen because of all that or should I say I'm more Heathen-influenced? Because I don't fall into the umbrella very well. :P
                  No, but it avoids some of the shit storms Dez was talking about if you don't use the term 'Heathen'. lol.

                  I'm not reconstructionist, and I don't like using the term 'Heathen' simply because of all the baggage attached to it. So many people get into arguments over this that it's just not really worth it. I've found that avoiding the term and making it clear that you're not a recon tends to avoid most of the problems. It makes life easier, if nothing else.

                  Labels don't really bother me that much. I'm just as happy calling myself something like 'Northern Tradition' as 'Heathen', so that's what I go with. Of course that label has it's own baggage, but I think they all do.

                  I guess one thing I have going for me is that some people just don't know what to do with my 'label'. lol. Northern Tradition Demonolator, sometimes with shamanist, animist or hardcore polytheist tacked on somewhere. Where does a person even start when telling me I can't use that label?

                  At the end of the day it's not so much about the label you want to use as the flak you feel like copping. If you want to avoid arguments, you may want to avoid the label 'Heathen' if you're not a recon. If you don't care about what other people say about you or to you, then go for it.

                  Here at PaganForum it's pretty safe to do either. I've not seen the arguments and vilification here that you get in other forums. I think the community that we have here is quite special in that respect.

                  Comment


                    Re: Heathen Q&A

                    It seems like quite a bit of Heathens seem to carry over the good/evil view from Christianity but I have seemn elsewhere, that the more traditional view is--and I paraphrase this--that the Gods bring order to the Giant's disorder. So, um, is this the more traditional view? If not, what is the more traditional view? And, um, finally, does the good/evil view that seems to be carried on from Christianity harm Heathenry at all?
                    IME, that's pretty accurate. The giants are the forces of nature and the gods are the mitigators of those forces. However, I think our role, as residents of midgard is to work in perfect balance of those things and not shun one in favor of the other. We are the balance.

                    Comment


                      Re: Heathen Q&A

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      No, but it avoids some of the shit storms Dez was talking about if you don't use the term 'Heathen'. lol.

                      I'm not reconstructionist, and I don't like using the term 'Heathen' simply because of all the baggage attached to it. So many people get into arguments over this that it's just not really worth it. I've found that avoiding the term and making it clear that you're not a recon tends to avoid most of the problems. It makes life easier, if nothing else.

                      Labels don't really bother me that much. I'm just as happy calling myself something like 'Northern Tradition' as 'Heathen', so that's what I go with. Of course that label has it's own baggage, but I think they all do.

                      I guess one thing I have going for me is that some people just don't know what to do with my 'label'. lol. Northern Tradition Demonolator, sometimes with shamanist, animist or hardcore polytheist tacked on somewhere. Where does a person even start when telling me I can't use that label?

                      At the end of the day it's not so much about the label you want to use as the flak you feel like copping. If you want to avoid arguments, you may want to avoid the label 'Heathen' if you're not a recon. If you don't care about what other people say about you or to you, then go for it.

                      Here at PaganForum it's pretty safe to do either. I've not seen the arguments and vilification here that you get in other forums. I think the community that we have here is quite special in that respect.
                      And this is why I don't call myself Heathen in English speaking forums anymore. I still us it Danish ones, but then Danish Heathens, and Scandinavic ones too, are in general a far more broad minded lot. Possibly because heathen is our word for pagan so it covers a whole lot of things, even stuff that doesn't have to do with the Old Norse gods. Plus the largest official group of Heathens in Denmark have exactly two requirements for membership:
                      1) You must believe in the Old Norse gods. (Not a word about how and even less about how to worship, practices etc.)
                      2) You must not, under any circumstances use the Old Norse gods or myth in neo-Nazi context.
                      End of requirements.

                      As you can imagine they, and the rest of us, make a pretty eclectic lot. And many of us use the word Heathen about ourselves. Now imagine the culture shock I got when I called myself Heathen in an English speaking forum and was told I wasn't because I didn't believe X, or didn't practise in Y fashion, or had chosen to incorporate Z in my practise.
                      At first I argued, but now I have given up on labeling myself. If that word means so much to them, they can keep it. After all, it wasn't what the Old Norse called themselves.
                      Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                      An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                      "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

                      Comment


                        Re: Heathen Q&A

                        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                        IME, that's pretty accurate. The giants are the forces of nature and the gods are the mitigators of those forces. However, I think our role, as residents of midgard is to work in perfect balance of those things and not shun one in favor of the other. We are the balance.
                        I really, really like that. It makes a lot more sense than the good/evil view I see. :/
                        Wild Witchy Dusk | TwitterMy Art Blog | My Deviantart

                        Comment


                          Re: Heathen Q&A

                          Originally posted by LuciaStar View Post
                          Thank you. I really didn't want to come off as rude or anything.



                          That sounds kinda similar to how I want to approach it. I do want to try to keep things as traditional as possible but being someone from the modern day, adaptation and tweaking around is going to happen. I'm not looking to destroy the meaning behind the traditional one but more or less looking at how it can work in today's world. I also kind of have a "Yes, Myths/Lore/What have you is important but I think UPG is essential too." approach, but that has always been there and it's just kind of how I function. I'll try not to be too concerned about what others think, I've been trying for a couple of years now so... heh.

                          Thank you for answering everything, though.

                          Um, hold on. I know a few Heathens have a "huge" problem with Loki so this kind of inspires the question...

                          It seems like quite a bit of Heathens seem to carry over the good/evil view from Christianity but I have seemn elsewhere, that the more traditional view is--and I paraphrase this--that the Gods bring order to the Giant's disorder. So, um, is this the more traditional view? If not, what is the more traditional view? And, um, finally, does the good/evil view that seems to be carried on from Christianity harm Heathenry at all?
                          Its hard for us humans to leave baggage behind us and unlearn lessons and thought patterns we have had for any period of time, the "good and evil" juxtaposition is quite firmly entrenched in heathen faith because most of what we know of the religion of our ancestors is given to us by christian scribes, this is not to say that they sought to corrupt what they wrote down, we can never know what condition the stories were by the time the scribes got to writing them down, but they were stories written down in a christian world by christians, and a lot was left out as common knowledge or as unsavoury.

                          Does this juxtaposition harm heathenry?
                          No I dont think so.
                          And this goes back to terminology again, no matter what some vocal heathens might say heathen is just a person who does not worship the Abrahamic god, its not just those of us who follow germanic/norse faith types. If people have issue with that then that is their problem.

                          The evil/good juxtaposition is not harmful because as a concept it is not that bad, it works. But it does depend on what you define as evil/good, and when you look at our gods they do not really fall into classical good/evil camps, as aesir/vanir/jotunn all carry out good and bad actions.

                          I have never been happy with the simplistic order/disorder juxtaposition either.
                          The giants only bring disorder in that they oppose the Aesir at ragnarok, the rest of the time they no different to the Aesir in how they behave/live.
                          They have laws/rule of order and defend their property/people.

                          Comment


                            Re: Heathen Q&A

                            So, this is going to be a bit of a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. As ancestors and family are considered really important in Heathenism, is it generally considered "bad" or wrong to never get married and/or have kids?

                            Again, I know it's probably a dumb question, but I'm new to Heathenry and was just curious about this.

                            Comment


                              Re: Heathen Q&A

                              Originally posted by Shadow Wolf View Post
                              So, this is going to be a bit of a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. As ancestors and family are considered really important in Heathenism, is it generally considered "bad" or wrong to never get married and/or have kids?

                              Again, I know it's probably a dumb question, but I'm new to Heathenry and was just curious about this.
                              Ancestors are all your kin prior to you, not just direct-line (aunts, great uncles, sixth cousins fourteen times removed). You might never father children, but you will still eventually be someone's ancestor. And we all know that "family" isn't defined by blood or DNA.
                              I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                              Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                              Clan of my Clan
                              Kin of my Kin
                              Blood of my Blood



                              For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                              And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                              Comment


                                Re: Heathen Q&A

                                Originally posted by Shadow Wolf View Post
                                So, this is going to be a bit of a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. As ancestors and family are considered really important in Heathenism, is it generally considered "bad" or wrong to never get married and/or have kids?
                                I can't speak for reconstructionists, but I don't personally think so. I agree with Rick that 'ancestors' are not just immediate family or even blood kin, and that even if you never have kids you can still end up an ancestor.

                                Personally I don't think that never getting married or having kids is at all wrong or un-Heathen. And quite aside from that, some people don't actually have a choice about this sort of thing.

                                Originally posted by Shadow Wolf View Post
                                Again, I know it's probably a dumb question, but I'm new to Heathenry and was just curious about this.
                                No such thing as a dumb question.

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