Moral dilema :(

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

all light and no dark is NOT sacred, spiritual nor natural.

thanks jembru, but im not a fluffy all good and no bad sorta person i know they go hand in hand, i was more upset by being wasteful. but ill manage haha

Oh and also, isn't balsam medicinal too? Couldn't you take some home with you and brew up some home remedies?

and i havent actually looked, mmm GOOGLE IT!!! of i go.

[Jembru]

Re: Moral dilema

Oh gosh.. no no.. I wasn't trying to imply you were I fluffy!! (O_O; ) I was just explaining how I would approach the situation and drifted off to why I reached this conclusion.. because of past experience.. Hope you weren't offended. I'd never call someone fluffy. I didn't think you were anyway, but I wouldn't have judged you even if I did.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Moral dilema

.. nice idea but it stung me cause it landed on my face and i slapped it before i realised what it was haha.

I'd say that would be a good reason to sting you. he he he I can somewhat relate, I was mowing the grass and didn't notice a ball hornet nest hanging low in the rose bush and hit the bush. All at once it felt like someone kicked me in the leg and I looked down and a ball hornet was on my leg. I still have the scar from that encounter on my right leg. About a year later I was mowing the same area when I discovered a Yellow Jacket nest had taken root in the ground and sure enough got stung again but this time on my back. Made sure I started to pay closer attention to that gate after that.

On side not, They better bloody not, stupid freaking plant its hard enough and spreads stupid fast enough as it is.

If its an invasive plant i'd be willing to bet it is hitch hiking on other's to get moved around. What's bad is if the trial has gravel or wood chips it's quite possible the plants were carried in mixed with the rocks or wood chips. Seen more invasive plants come in that way than any other way except intentional planting.

This is something i was kinda thinking about maybe, making an offering to the species spirit, and asking for it to move any spirits from where in going to be doing the pulling.

Sometimes I find an offering has to be made not only to the plants one is pulling or cutting but also to the larger spirit that watches over the whole area. Then other times not only are offerings required but oaths are required as well that one had better adhere to less they pay for it. It's like I was cutting some tree's and had made offerings and such to the tree's and the larger spirit that watched over the area. Yet one Oak was not happy and hurt me a number of times as we cut it down and cleared out the refuge. Had a branch snap and rake my eye and cut it, had another section snap and catch me then had the darn thing twist and turn against the wind on us and nearly fall on us as it was being cut down. I finally made peace with it by gathering things up and leaving the area so I didn't cut anymore and only watched and directed my sons and a friend who was helping us. Swore i'd not cut another tree while I was there nor clean up any debries that was left over but ensure everyone else thanked the tree's for their giftings and bodies and that we created brush captures to give homes to the smaller birds and animals that were in the area.

I would add that the Spirit of place may also change. I had started to get a bad feeling when ever I entered a higher field and actually felt as if the Spirit was saying stay out. A few days later a rock shot out from under the mower and hit me in the right leg (yep same leg) and it damaged it pretty bad that it took almost a year to fully heal and today I have a large scare to mark the point where it smashed into my leg. It was months before I was able to go through that gateway into the upper field and felt welcome again.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

not to what i was doing, from my point of view the plants i was pulling up and cutting down, weren't going to cause me any harm there fore i wasnt protecting my self or others from them.

I didn't ask about you personally. I asked about your environment--where you happen to be working.

If sone's ethics are limited to their own personal well being, I find this to be rather problematic since it precludes working and existing as a group. And seeing as humans are social creatures, the well being of the "group" (which is not limited to one species or even one area) is an important concept.

So, why does it not apply? Why can't you think beyond yourself or even humans?

[Starless]

Re: Moral dilema

I got stung by a wasp after I gassed a nest that was in my horses' pasture. I had to do it so they wouldn't sting my horses. It wasn't karma, it was because I was traipsing around their nest. It happens.

You don't really use weeds you pull out of your garden, do you? Same thing. The plants you're getting rid of weren't supposed to be there in the first place.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

Oh gosh.. no no.. I wasn't trying to imply you were I fluffy!! (O_O; ) I was just explaining how I would approach the situation and drifted off to why I reached this conclusion.. because of past experience.. Hope you weren't offended. I'd never call someone fluffy. I didn't think you were anyway, but I wouldn't have judged you even if I did.

hahaha, no worries you didnt offend im extreamly hard to offend, and trust me ill let you know when you do haha.

I was mowing the grass and didn't notice a ball hornet nest hanging low in the rose bush and hit the bush. All at once it felt like someone kicked me in the leg and I looked down and a ball hornet was on my leg.

I know theres a dabate on a another thread around here about things being inherently good or evil. Hornets a just pure evil haha. joke. that sucks dude i hate hornets.

Sometimes I find an offering has to be made not only to the plants one is pulling or cutting but also to the larger spirit that watches over the whole area.

hmmmmm so your saying i should make an offering to the woodland spirit itself. thats kinda hard cos we travel to several woodlands in the area, hmmmmm maybe to the spirit of the entire area then? but i've never worked with anything that big before i wouldnt have a clue where to start.

I didn't ask about you personally. I asked about your environment--where you happen to be working.

So, why does it not apply? Why can't you think beyond yourself or even humans?

obviously, i do think beyond the human species, hence doing voluntary conservation work to begin with. and i do understand what your saying about protecting your enviroment, but there is only so far you can take that. ok as mentioned above, life and death are inextricable linked. the weak and old die so that the strong may live. yes humans are responsible for bringing over balsam and allowing it to escape into the wild. yes its invasive and can cause truble for local plant life. but that on its own doesnt automatically give me the right to rip it up and kill it (well scientifically it does, but not ethically ad morally) for example, red squrrills are native to britain, greys are not. reds were brought to the edge of extinction when the american grey squirrel was introduced. and through a lot of careful conservation and help are finally slowly growing in numbers again, though still in danger of extinction. so from how i, interpret what your saying Vigdisdotter. is that to protect my native enviroment i am quite within my rights to go on a killing rampage and wipe out every grey squirrel in britain and not feel guilty for it? because they are an invasive, not native species right?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Moral dilema

.. hmmmmm so your saying i should make an offering to the woodland spirit itself. thats kinda hard cos we travel to several woodlands in the area, hmmmmm maybe to the spirit of the entire area then? but i've never worked with anything that big before i wouldnt have a clue where to start.

This is purely speculative on my part but something perhaps to consider.

Ley Lines are pretty well developed and documented through out England and mark the old vortex lines and junctures from what I recall. Sorry the last time I was in the British Isles (Scotland specifically) was back in 1979 time frame so my memory is not to up to date in that regards. But some of those old maps also indicated what the old forest lines where and how they all connected to the larger ancient forest that once dominated areas. I think if you found any of the ley line maps or old forest maps you might be able to get a good idea where the older and deeper spirits reside and which areas they may lay claim to. Perhaps even look into the notion of Fire (red lines) & Water (blue or green lines) Lines as I vaguely recall some of those were plotted out as a speculative suggestion.

This part is purely speculative on my part but I think if you find any of the neolithic hill forts or such you've got a good idea where some of them resided and perhaps still reside for a given district or larger area. Sort of like mini Stonehenge's or other hot spots that were sacred and held a power or energy of their own that tied it to the land.

At best i'd say a prayer and make an offering and / or libations to the spirit that presides over the section of woods your going to be going into. I do not recall any typical folkish offerings that were aimed at England but if you research a bit you might find one. For instance in the US a typical generic offering was tobacco by many NA nations so it seems to be an acceptable offering today for many practitioners. I've used it a number of times when dealing with my local spirits and it's generally accepted.

Sometimes offerings of food to the local wildlife is acceptable but with that you have to be extremely careful less you get them used to humans or introduce something new into their diets / environment that is not normal. It can also create an awful mess potentially if not accepted and left to rot and decay.

[thalassa]

Re: Moral dilema

ok as mentioned above, life and death are inextricable linked. the weak and old die so that the strong may live. yes humans are responsible for bringing over balsam and allowing it to escape into the wild. yes its invasive and can cause truble for local plant life. but that on its own doesnt automatically give me the right to rip it up and kill it (well scientifically it does, but not ethically ad morally) for example, red squrrills are native to britain, greys are not. reds were brought to the edge of extinction when the american grey squirrel was introduced. and through a lot of careful conservation and help are finally slowly growing in numbers again, though still in danger of extinction. so from how i, interpret what your saying Vigdisdotter. is that to protect my native enviroment i am quite within my rights to go on a killing rampage and wipe out every grey squirrel in britain and not feel guilty for it? because they are an invasive, not native species right?

IMO...if a species is actually invasive (and there is a difference between naturalized and invasive), yes. Personally, if there was a distributution system available and they were safe to eat, I'd hope you'd feed the squirrels to people, because they are edible (baring disease, etc)...but economically speaking, that's not always feasible. And sometimes something isn't useful, or there is too much of it to use, or its not economical. But yes, I think that it is quite fine to wipe out every grey squirrel in Britain, or Asian Carp in North American rivers and creeks, or zebra mussels in the Great Lakes, or beavers in Argentina, or cane toads in Austraila. IMO, the spirit of an individual organism is only part of the larger spirit of the bioregion, its not an independently functioning entity of its own, but a tiny piece of that species collective spirit and the ecological spirit of the land...killing the individual doesn't damage its spirit, when it doesn't belong there in the first place. And, living in America, I can tell you that we have plenty of gray squirrels...their collective spirit would be just fine without Britains (you could always stun 'em and ship 'em over here--we have coyotes and foxes and bobcats, they'd even out the popuation naturally).

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

IMO...if a species is actually invasive (and there is a difference between naturalized and invasive), yes. Personally, if there was a distributution system available and they were safe to eat, I'd hope you'd feed the squirrels to people, because they are edible (baring disease, etc)...but economically speaking, that's not always feasible. And sometimes something isn't useful, or there is too much of it to use, or its not economical. But yes, I think that it is quite fine to wipe out every grey squirrel in Britain, or Asian Carp in North American rivers and creeks, or zebra mussels in the Great Lakes, or beavers in Argentina, or cane toads in Austraila. IMO, the spirit of an individual organism is only part of the larger spirit of the bioregion, its not an independently functioning entity of its own, but a tiny piece of that species collective spirit and the ecological spirit of the land...killing the individual doesn't damage its spirit, when it doesn't belong there in the first place. And, living in America, I can tell you that we have plenty of gray squirrels...their collective spirit would be just fine without Britains (you could always stun 'em and ship 'em over here--we have coyotes and foxes and bobcats, they'd even out the popuation naturally).

ok you have the degree in this so you probably know better than i do. buuut i think if i did go on a killing rampage a killed every grey squirril in the british isles instantly (or within a short period of time anyway) would that not be a big problem by removing a link from the chain in the eco system. red squirrils in britain now mainly live in special colonies so removing all the grey squirrels from the picture although allowing the reds to epand eventually wouldnt the lack of squirrils in general damage area's to begin with?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Moral dilema

ok you have the degree in this so you probably know better than i do. buuut i think if i did go on a killing rampage a killed every grey squirril in the british isles instantly (or within a short period of time anyway) would that not be a big problem by removing a link from the chain in the eco system. red squirrils in britain now mainly live in special colonies so removing all the grey squirrels from the picture although allowing the reds to epand eventually wouldnt the lack of squirrils in general damage area's to begin with?

I think here your really starting to get into the argument of introduced species versus intrusive species versus natural species to a given ecosystem. To kill all the grey's would only create another void where something else would come in and fill it. Come in either by introduction or migration though potentially other means as well. The rat is one such creature that has migrated quite a bit by stowing away on many ships and such then with no natural enemies their sexual reproduction goes wild and they overrun the ecosystem.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

obviously, i do think beyond the human species, hence doing voluntary conservation work to begin with. and i do understand what your saying about protecting your enviroment, but there is only so far you can take that.

Why? And why have you chosen to put the limit at removing invasive species? I'm trying to understand your reasoning here and so far all I can see is pretty arbitrary.

but that on its own doesnt automatically give me the right to rip it up and kill it

Why not? You aren't doing it willy-nilly. There is an overarching rationale behind doing so. It serves a purpose.

so from how i, interpret what your saying Vigdisdotter. is that to protect my native enviroment i am quite within my rights to go on a killing rampage and wipe out every grey squirrel in britain and not feel guilty for it? because they are an invasive, not native species right?

(emphasis mine)

*SIGH*

No. Not even close.

Conservation and protection of a population/species/environment is done with careful planning and forethought about what goals are to be accomplished. And yes, that will often include a cull of invasive species and even the DESIRED species as human take over the role of the natural predators that we've wiped out. Humans spread things around with our global travel, but if we take responsibility for that and try to do something to correct it, we're doing a bad thing? No, we aren't. It's called responsible stewardship, something you seem to be balking at for some reason.

You seem bound and determined to feel bad about your actions. And really that is up to you. But from my end of things you DO look rather fluffy for it. I'm pointing that out so that you can decide if you want to modify how you're presenting your case. In any event, I will leave you to it, as you seem to have already made up your mind. Good luck with your ethical/moral choices.

[anunitu]

Re: Moral dilema

I know that this will generate so blow back,but here it goes. In some ways the best way to honor nature as far as protecting nature would be for mankind(humans) to go away. Since we must exist within the scope of nature there is no reason to become overly negative about our effect on nature and all its many forms. Predators kill and eat pray,and in many ways we humans are the top predators. The problem is we have no natural predators except ourselves(we kill each other). We are at the top of the food chain,and perhaps that is the natural way of things,but there is the thought that we should use constraint in our approach to nature. To not be natures master,but to be integrated as a part of nature and the flow of life.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

Why? And why have you chosen to put the limit at removing invasive species? I'm trying to understand your reasoning here and so far all I can see is pretty arbitrary.



Why not? You aren't doing it willy-nilly. There is an overarching rationale behind doing so. It serves a purpose.



(emphasis mine)

*SIGH*

No. Not even close.

Conservation and protection of a population/species/environment is done with careful planning and forethought about what goals are to be accomplished. And yes, that will often include a cull of invasive species and even the DESIRED species as human take over the role of the natural predators that we've wiped out. Humans spread things around with our global travel, but if we take responsibility for that and try to do something to correct it, we're doing a bad thing? No, we aren't. It's called responsible stewardship, something you seem to be balking at for some reason.

You seem bound and determined to feel bad about your actions. And really that is up to you. But from my end of things you DO look rather fluffy for it. I'm pointing that out so that you can decide if you want to modify how you're presenting your case. In any event, I will leave you to it, as you seem to have already made up your mind. Good luck with your ethical/moral choices.

I think you've skipped out reading some of my posts. as has been said in abovre posts the main problem i was having was that i felt i was being disrepectful. a situation which has been solved with the idea to give an offering to the species spirit.

and you spilt the post into three points in stead of the one point i originally made.

and the whole grey squirril example was just that and example. if you believe the same rules don't apply to animals as to plants then thats your outlook and great. but i do believe they have the same rules and respect applied to them and the example was just to put the actions being talked about into a more effective perspective. because thats what we are basically doing trying to eradicate the balsam(grey squirrels) for the benifit of the native plants (the reds), and when i said theres only so far you can take conservation, i was refering to the above example. that if the balsam was an animal rather than a plant, people would think twice about eradicating it the way we are.

Why not? You aren't doing it willy-nilly. There is an overarching rationale behind doing so. It serves a purpose.

you missed out what was in the brackets, yes scientifically its not an irrational thing, but it wasnt a logical problem i was having it was a moral one.

and yes i was feeling bad about it, mainly because i was destroying life weather justified or not, and the reason i posted this thread was to find away to make myself feel better about it.

and i dont really need to present my case any differently. at the end of the day if that perticular part of my beliefs are fluffy then screw they are fluffy, here *hops up to you and hands you a chocolate egg* just call me the easter bunny


Look end of the day lets just put the whole consevation part of it aside, i understand in that sense why im doing it and id happy to do so.

my problem was that i didnt feel i was giving the respect to the plants that they deserved, which as said above, and offering to the species spirit will make me feel better.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Moral dilema

From what I have read, Kahl, what you most seem to be worried about is offending the spirits of the plant itself. Even if the plant itself is choking out other plants. (Which is what invasive species do.) May I make the suggestion that the plants which are being pushed out by the plant you are tearing up deserve your protection from the invasive plant? If the invasive plant is damaging the ecosystem of the area, don't you have the responsibility to protect those spirits at least as much as the choking plant? Make an offering to what you are preparing to tear out of the ground, and apologize, but tear it out, let the spirit know why you are tearing it out. keep in mind that the spirit of the area could be just as damaged by that plant being there, or even more so than the spirit of the plant you are removing. Also keep in mind you are not decimating the plants... come back in a few weeks I will bet you will see more of said plants starting to regrow, and I bet they will even need trimming again. Humans introduced this plant likely and created what could be considered an illness within the local spirit, throwing it out of balance, sometimes you must make the decision to protect one spirit over another, and keep in mind that the local spirit has no way to defend against the alien spirit.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

From what I have read, Kahl, what you most seem to be worried about is offending the spirits of the plant itself. Even if the plant itself is choking out other plants. (Which is what invasive species do.) May I make the suggestion that the plants which are being pushed out by the plant you are tearing up deserve your protection from the invasive plant? If the invasive plant is damaging the ecosystem of the area, don't you have the responsibility to protect those spirits at least as much as the choking plant? Make an offering to what you are preparing to tear out of the ground, and apologize, but tear it out, let the spirit know why you are tearing it out. keep in mind that the spirit of the area could be just as damaged by that plant being there, or even more so than the spirit of the plant you are removing. Also keep in mind you are not decimating the plants... come back in a few weeks I will bet you will see more of said plants starting to regrow, and I bet they will even need trimming again. Humans introduced this plant likely and created what could be considered an illness within the local spirit, throwing it out of balance, sometimes you must make the decision to protect one spirit over another, and keep in mind that the local spirit has no way to defend against the alien spirit.

thank you maria thats exactly how i feel, how i plan on looking at it and what i plan on doing.