Honour in todays combat.

[Doc_Holliday]

I've seen quite a few Heathens say things along the lines of "Anybody in the military will not go to Valhalla because there is no honour in today's combat."
I think its not true because I think Odin is an extremely wise god, and because he is wise he understands that the times of war have changed. I'm positive he doesn't expect Heathens to charge in with a bearded war axe to fight the insurgents or any enemies with fully automatic rifles, rocket propelled grenades, armoured vehicles etc. etc.

What are your opinions on this?

[Gleb]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Odin is a wise god, indeed. I think that Odin understands that technologies have changed significantly during the years. There is honour in using automatic rifles, grenades and vehiles as well.
Technologies change, but the honour remains.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Odin is a wise god, indeed. I think that Odin understands that technologies have changed significantly during the years. There is honour in using automatic rifles, grenades and vehiles as well.
Technologies change, but the honour remains.

Agreed. For me and my belief, its not the weapon used, its the conduct and discretion used when you are using the weapon. Especially if the enemy is using the same weapon, than you have no given advantage, except for your training and ability.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I tend to think that the Honor in today's military is driven more by the concept of whether one is a warrior, a solider or simply a merc.

The Merc joins the military simply for the money and no other reason, it's not about being a comrade or brother / sister-in-arms. It's not about defense and protection of their home, hearth and kin / kindred. They may make a career of it or sell their skill to the highest bidder but it never goes deeper than that. Sadly I think many of them may have started out as a solider or warrior but battle becomes more valuable to them than anything else. They maybe excellent fighters or killers but they loose something in their ability to inspire and motivate by their mere presence before others.

The solider joins for more than money but again it's still more of a job than a calling and the brother / sisterhood of arms that brings them to the ranks. They may fight to protect home, hearth and kin & kindred but will step away the moment it is done. Their whole lives maybe committed to their "Job" but it is never the full focus of their lives and purpose. Again they maybe good or even excellent fighters or killers but they to lack something that allows them to inspire or motivate those about them. They lack the "Presence" that allows them to fulfill that great role that changes the outcome of things simply by being there.

The warrior though joins because of honor and commitment. He / She trains above and beyond the limits of what is acceptable fully training the mind and body to do the dance of battle for they know the battle occurs as much upon the battlefield as upon the mental landscape. They fight for home, hearth, kin and kindred but see it in both companion and opponent thus respecting their foe. In many ways they train for battle but long for peace for I think peace is more demanding of their skills than battle. Again maybe exceptional fighters / killers but their strength flows more from inspiration upon the battlefield in those about them. Those who inspire and motivate everyone around them even when things are dark and death all but a certain outcome. Many times rank and position of no importance in inspiring though they maybe rewarded by the bestowal of rank, position, awards and privilege.

The sad part I suppose is that to me many under the heathen and pagan umbrella's do not see death and combat outside of the military thus fail to see the battle that is performed by say someone like a firefighter who battles the flame or the medic who battles death. Fail to see that a weapon does not have to be an edged or blunt force item but can equally be a hose or words.

[Gleb]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

There is a saying in Hebrew:
"Life and death are in the hands of tongue."

- - - Updated - - -

You can use also your mental training, and the enemy's weapons against him.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

listverse.com/2010/02/19/10-astounding-actions-earning-a-medal-of-honor/

I think if I were collecting valorous combatants for my own personal army of the fallen and left out people like those in the list linked above then my judgement would be seriously impaired. I also think Odin is almost certainly wiser than I am.

[Riothamus12]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I generally consider war contemptible even to deities of war. One can have a warrior soul without killing. I have no compunctions about laying someone out to defend myself but only if they stand as a direct threat to me. The holy ones are not wanton in their destruction, war is. I think much of modern warfare is even less honorable than it once was in some ways. In a way I think people if they should decide to go to war should have to get in close so they can understand the weight of what they're doing.If war is ever truly justifiable it should always be a last resort.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

The holy ones are not wanton in their destruction, war is.

I have one word for you: Ragnarok.

As far as the OP goes, I think the idea of honour in commbat is entirely subjective and very much a social construct of the time. I also find the concept silly. I have no moral issues with stabbing someone in the back in the dark if that's what it takes to defend me and mine.

I think Odin would find a lot more "honour" in someone's willingness to live with their choices to get the job done then being massacred in a "stand up fight" they can't possibly win. However if someone is "just following orders" and not taking responsibility even within their own mind, that is lacking in honour.

[Riothamus12]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I have one word for you: Ragnarok.

As far as the OP goes, I think the idea of honour in commbat is entirely subjective and very much a social construct of the time. I also find the concept silly. I have no moral issues with stabbing someone in the back in the dark if that's what it takes to defend me and mine.

I think Odin would find a lot more "honour" in someone's willingness to live with their choices to get the job done then being massacred in a "stand up fight" they can't possibly win. However if someone is "just following orders" and not taking responsibility even within their own mind, that is lacking in honour.

It is far from silly to me.If the holy ones are honorable in such matters then we should also strive to be honorable in such matters.To approach something with honor is to approach with wisdom and wisdom makes one to flourish.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

It is far from silly to me.If the holy ones are honorable in such matters then we should also strive to be honorable in such matters.To approach something with honor is to approach with wisdom and wisdom makes one to flourish.

Bolded mine. Actually i'd say no, more developments and technological leaps forward have occurred as a result of war and conflict than any other human endeavor. Nor would I say the holy ones are honorable in such things as your seemingly implying here.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

f the holy ones are honorable in such matters then we should also strive to be honorable in such matters..

Have you read the saga's lately? Do you really see a lot of honour there? Do you think rape is honorable? Because Odin is guilty of that one.

The idea that the gods are perfect beings that are put on pedistools honestly baffles me.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

I've seen quite a few Heathens say things along the lines of "Anybody in the military will not go to Valhalla because there is no honour in today's combat."
I think its not true because I think Odin is an extremely wise god, and because he is wise he understands that the times of war have changed. I'm positive he doesn't expect Heathens to charge in with a bearded war axe to fight the insurgents or any enemies with fully automatic rifles, rocket propelled grenades, armoured vehicles etc. etc.

What are your opinions on this?

Depends on what your definition of 'honor' is. Are those people concerned about the combat techniques, or the reasons for the joining the military, or the reasons for the military going to war?

Othinn and Frejya (remember that she takes a half of the fallen warriors and has first pick) are concerned about physical prowess in battle. They are collecting soldiers to fight for them in Ragnarok. They are collecting the most skilled soldiers, not the most honorable or the most pious or the most inspiring ones.

Lets think back to Viking age warriors shall we... why are the called 'Vikings'? Because they went i vikingr. They didn't stay at home to defend their women and children all full of honor and integrity. They ranged outwards, searching for new lands and new wealth. They traveled, they discovered, they waged war. Those who died gloriously in battle are seated forevermore amongst the ranks of the Einherjar or Frejya's Folk. Those who drowned were dragged down by Ran's nets to her husbands hall. Those who died otherwise are claimed by Hella and will actually fight for the Jotun at Ragnarok, regardless of what their allegiances during life were.

Which brings me to this... those in the military who die in the line of duty are the ONLY ones who are going to Valhalla (or Folkvang). I'm sorry, but no matter how much you may have a warrior's heart or live a 'warrior's life', you are of no use to Othinn and Frejya in Ragnarok. They need soldiers. They take people who die in battle. They don't take people who die of illness or old age or festering wounds, even if they were great warriors... that's why Viking age warriors wanted to die in battle, not peacefully during their sleep.

People think that those of us sitting at home who practice martial arts or who are ready to defend our children with tooth and nail can claim to be 'warriors' and will be admitted to Valhalla or Folkvang. I don't believe that. Not when we're talking about the Northern deities. Yes, they are aware of the evolution of our physical realm and the people within it, but that doesn't change their basic nature. That doesn't change Ragnarok. And Ragnarok is what they are worried about, not our petty ideas of what constitutes 'honor'. Honor isn't going to turn the tide at the end of days.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Although I would consider myself to be almost a heathen in the Anglo-Saxon tradition, I think I am so far out of keg on this topic that I'm liable to get shot down by the end of this post. However, be that as it may, I think I need to say this anyway.

Firstly we had better define what we mean by 'battle.' Do we mean a set piece? Guerilla warfare? Chucking depleted uranium over Iraq? Sending in the drones?

Remember that what we read (and in the AS tradition that's precious little anyway) is a translation. So there are going to be ambiguities and variations. Is a battle the same as a struggle? Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I think struggle - however it manifests - is what matters. But that's just me. I'm not a warrior in the sense I've ever fought or killed anyone (well, I haven't been in a really good scrap since I was about 13 but that's another story) - but struggle? Oh yes, I know about that. And I believe the gods know it too.

And I will get to wherever I believe I am going after this life by sheer bloody mindedness if nothing else. Because that's the way I've always lived my life and always will. And Woden knows that too. We have an understanding, him and me.

As for dying in battle - well, people can be bloody useless in battle. They can get others killed while they themselves survive for a while, only to be killed eventually. Is their any honour in their deaths, or the needless deaths they caused? Look at some of the so-called war heroes who are revealed to be dangerous egotists. Is that what the gods want? What they need?

And what about unjust wars... is there any honour in those? A soldier may die in the line of duty - but was his/her duty honourable in the first place? Because if it wasn't, then I don't think Valhalla is going to be on offer anyway. Because when we talk about Odin, remember that he discovered the runes, he quested after wisdom as well as martial glory. And there is no wisdom - or honour - in unjust wars.

Now I think I'll go and sharpen mr Penry's axe

[thalassa]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Depends on what your definition of 'honor' is. Are those people concerned about the combat techniques, or the reasons for the joining the military, or the reasons for the military going to war?

Othinn and Frejya (remember that she takes a half of the fallen warriors and has first pick) are concerned about physical prowess in battle. They are collecting soldiers to fight for them in Ragnarok. They are collecting the most skilled soldiers, not the most honorable or the most pious or the most inspiring ones.

Lets think back to Viking age warriors shall we... why are the called 'Vikings'? Because they went i vikingr. They didn't stay at home to defend their women and children all full of honor and integrity. They ranged outwards, searching for new lands and new wealth. They traveled, they discovered, they waged war. Those who died gloriously in battle are seated forevermore amongst the ranks of the Einherjar or Frejya's Folk. Those who drowned were dragged down by Ran's nets to her husbands hall. Those who died otherwise are claimed by Hella and will actually fight for the Jotun at Ragnarok, regardless of what their allegiances during life were.

Which brings me to this... those in the military who die in the line of duty are the ONLY ones who are going to Valhalla (or Folkvang). I'm sorry, but no matter how much you may have a warrior's heart or live a 'warrior's life', you are of no use to Othinn and Frejya in Ragnarok. They need soldiers. They take people who die in battle. They don't take people who die of illness or old age or festering wounds, even if they were great warriors... that's why Viking age warriors wanted to die in battle, not peacefully during their sleep.

People think that those of us sitting at home who practice martial arts or who are ready to defend our children with tooth and nail can claim to be 'warriors' and will be admitted to Valhalla or Folkvang. I don't believe that. Not when we're talking about the Northern deities. Yes, they are aware of the evolution of our physical realm and the people within it, but that doesn't change their basic nature. That doesn't change Ragnarok. And Ragnarok is what they are worried about, not our petty ideas of what constitutes 'honor'. Honor isn't going to turn the tide at the end of days.

And this, exactly this, is why I could never be Heathen (or a recon of any sort, because I have similar issues with other pantheons as well...and the Abrahamic faith). To me (this will undoubtedly piss someone, somewhere off), this is just the most illogical idea ever--if your purpose is to find soldiers for a big knock-down, drag-out, then dying in battle is pretty much a crapshoot for quality. Just as likely to get the slow guy, the injured guy, the unlucky guy, the less skilled guy as the one that died in some sort of skilled, glorious death of honor. IMO, its obviously not a divine idea, but a human one. Even if the gods plural aren't infallible, one would hope they'd you know, be looking for the best warriors, maybe a few strategic thinkers, etc...with all that eternal time to get smart, that they'd have a bit more foresight and insight into humanity.

Yeah, sue me...I look for a cohesive internal logic in the illogical!

I've seen quite a few Heathens say things along the lines of "Anybody in the military will not go to Valhalla because there is no honour in today's combat."
I think its not true because I think Odin is an extremely wise god, and because he is wise he understands that the times of war have changed. I'm positive he doesn't expect Heathens to charge in with a bearded war axe to fight the insurgents or any enemies with fully automatic rifles, rocket propelled grenades, armoured vehicles etc. etc.

What are your opinions on this?

I don't have any opinion really of the Odin (or any other Heathen god's take on the matter, see the above, lol) but...I do have an opinion on war and combat and modern military service and honor--as veteran, a (former) military spouse (he's a vet now too, not he's an ex in the military, lol), and a historical reenactor of the American Civil War.

There is no honor in war. Yes, military personnel themselves can be honorable---Monsno's breakdown of the 'type' of people that have been part of the modern military is pretty apt...I might describe it a wee bit differently and maybe slip another group or two in their (draftees and conscripts, for example), but overall, he's right. Their actions...our actions...can be honorable, they can even engage in honorable combat with modern arms....but there is no honor in war, on either side. Yeah, there can be a 'side' that has a bit more 'right' on their side (the Allies in WWII for example, the American Civil War, etc)...but there is no honor in sending our mothers and fathers and sons and daughters to kill another’s mothers and fathers and sons and daughters (or vice versa).

It is a tragic and painful fact that every nation and every generation has seen conflict escalate to war–whether it be to combat a cruel leader seeking to oppress their people (or another’s people), or a hapless legislature sending their might abroad for spurious reasons. Humanity will never be perfect, there will always be someone that is willing to kill in the most heinous of ways to achieve power, and there will always need to be someone willing to take up arms against them. This means that the innocent will die alongside the not-so innocent, and that communities and entire countries will be ravaged, both the people and the land. There is no honor in war, whether or not it is fought for the 'right' reasons or not.

But there can be honor in service. There is honor in protecting our homes, our families, our land, and our ideals. There is honor in standing up for the downtrodden, for seeking to bring justice where there was tyranny, and to try our damnedest to secure equality and freedom for a new generation. There can be honor in combat, in protecting your brothers in arms (whether they are actually male or not), in protecting those that cannot protect themselves---but unfortunately, war itself is just as often a matter of starvation and disease and wanton destruction of the innocent and unlucky (the so-called "collateral damage").

What the gods (of any pantheon) choose to do with that, its for the followers of those traditions to quibble over.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Honour in todays combat.

Have you read the saga's lately? Do you really see a lot of honour there? Do you think rape is honorable? Because Odin is guilty of that one.

The idea that the gods are perfect beings that are put on pedistools honestly baffles me.

Bolded mine I often wonder if the notion of rape in the Saga's and Edda's is the same as in many Greek writings. Especially the content that rape was not always a sexual act but the stealing or taking of a person or thing away from an area. The story of the Rape of Persephone is about Hades stealing her from her mother not a sexual act for instance. Though at times seduction is listed as a form of rape as it is done via deception.