Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Linguistics and the Craft

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #31
    Re: Linguistics and the Craft

    Originally posted by Cumulus View Post
    I always do rituals in my native language, sometimes I use other rituals as inspiration or more or less copy them, but they have so far all been in English and a translation/rewriting then become part of the preparations, especially poems can be tricky, they are rewritten instead of direct translated. When I do a ritual I want to know the full meaning of the words to match my intentions. I think English (or German) could be an option it I ever would participate in a group ritual with people having other native languages than Danish.
    That sounds quite interesting! A part of me would like to hear what workings sound like in Danish

    Comment


      #32
      Re: Linguistics and the Craft

      I thought I'd pop by to say I used Japanese in a ritual tonight for the first time! I didn't plan to, but it just felt appropriate at the time. I'm celebrating the equinox early. I did a formal ritual tonight, tomorrow I will have a kind of 'pre-harvest feast where I ask for blessings for the big day itself. Then on Sunday, the day of the equinox, I see my Japanese friends for the big reveal!

      This 'harvest' that is, my goal of being conversational in Japanese, has been 2 years in the making. I have never worked so long and so hard towards a single goal, but this meant so much to me. I'm not by anyone's standard, fluent, nor grammatically accurate. There are massive chunks of the language missing from my knowledge, but I have almost reached a usable level that allows me to converse with a good degree of ease and flexibility and that's good enough for me. My speaking level matches my reading and writing level more closely at least! The finer details.. well, I can still study on a more casual basis, and just learn by doing from now on. By listening to, reading and joining in with, the language itself. Fluency will come in its own time.

      So this is a huge equinox for me, and a huge achievement, you might even say the realisation of a dream. So it felt fitting that I start my celebrations early.. asking for the support and blessing of Brigantia and Bregans to enable these last 2 cram days to go as well as possible so that I don't make a total idiot of myself on Sunday.

      So I opened my weekend of celebration earlier with a small ritual and almost without thinking, I switched to Japanese. Why thank the gods for a new skill any other way than by demonstrating it? Of course, I cried too. I always cry in rituals, but this time was so touching. I was speaking and listening to myself speaking so easily and actually making sense felt surreal.. almost like it wasn't me and I was just borrowing someone's head-space for a while.

      Oh and also.. I started off speaking honourifically, but it felt very stiff and unfitting for the kind of relationship I feel I have with the gods, so I played with a few styles and found that causal, but sensitive.. that is, using indirect styles to show respect, while still using familiar language, felt the most natural way to speak to them.

      I'm now really interested to know if others have tried using a language that has different politeness levels, which they went for when speaking to their gods. I mean, people often use, 'thou' don't they? Which was like German 'du', in old English, so more casual and friendly than 'you' (I don't know why we kept the colder more formal word and dropped 'thou'). So maybe the closer informal style is actually what our gods prefer?
      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

      Comment


        #33
        Re: Linguistics and the Craft

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        I thought I'd pop by to say I used Japanese in a ritual tonight for the first time! I didn't plan to, but it just felt appropriate at the time. I'm celebrating the equinox early. I did a formal ritual tonight, tomorrow I will have a kind of 'pre-harvest feast where I ask for blessings for the big day itself. Then on Sunday, the day of the equinox, I see my Japanese friends for the big reveal!

        This 'harvest' that is, my goal of being conversational in Japanese, has been 2 years in the making. I have never worked so long and so hard towards a single goal, but this meant so much to me. I'm not by anyone's standard, fluent, nor grammatically accurate. There are massive chunks of the language missing from my knowledge, but I have almost reached a usable level that allows me to converse with a good degree of ease and flexibility and that's good enough for me. My speaking level matches my reading and writing level more closely at least! The finer details.. well, I can still study on a more casual basis, and just learn by doing from now on. By listening to, reading and joining in with, the language itself. Fluency will come in its own time.

        So this is a huge equinox for me, and a huge achievement, you might even say the realisation of a dream. So it felt fitting that I start my celebrations early.. asking for the support and blessing of Brigantia and Bregans to enable these last 2 cram days to go as well as possible so that I don't make a total idiot of myself on Sunday.

        So I opened my weekend of celebration earlier with a small ritual and almost without thinking, I switched to Japanese. Why thank the gods for a new skill any other way than by demonstrating it? Of course, I cried too. I always cry in rituals, but this time was so touching. I was speaking and listening to myself speaking so easily and actually making sense felt surreal.. almost like it wasn't me and I was just borrowing someone's head-space for a while.

        Oh and also.. I started off speaking honourifically, but it felt very stiff and unfitting for the kind of relationship I feel I have with the gods, so I played with a few styles and found that causal, but sensitive.. that is, using indirect styles to show respect, while still using familiar language, felt the most natural way to speak to them.

        I'm now really interested to know if others have tried using a language that has different politeness levels, which they went for when speaking to their gods. I mean, people often use, 'thou' don't they? Which was like German 'du', in old English, so more casual and friendly than 'you' (I don't know why we kept the colder more formal word and dropped 'thou'). So maybe the closer informal style is actually what our gods prefer?
        I think that it's great that you're using Japanese in your rituals. I usually just say a small prayer in English, but once I get my life in order and move out on my own, I will definitely get into more intense ritual work, and would probably use Japanese and/or Chinese (Mandarin). For me, being extremely formal would just make it a lot more intense for me, and I guess it's because I see formal as being a part of the "Old Ways" if you will, and so that "ancient" ambiance meshes rather well with the aura of the works that I want to involve myself in. I think that at the end of the day, the gods want us to unite with them and experience them with a profundity that can only come when we do that which feels right to our own person. If using more informal wording feels best to you, and that brings you closer to your deities, then I believe that is the path you should set yourself on. Happy Belated Solstice to you, Dear Jembru.

        Comment


          #34
          Re: Linguistics and the Craft

          Originally posted by Simatong View Post
          I think that it's great that you're using Japanese in your rituals. I usually just say a small prayer in English, but once I get my life in order and move out on my own, I will definitely get into more intense ritual work, and would probably use Japanese and/or Chinese (Mandarin). For me, being extremely formal would just make it a lot more intense for me, and I guess it's because I see formal as being a part of the "Old Ways" if you will, and so that "ancient" ambiance meshes rather well with the aura of the works that I want to involve myself in. I think that at the end of the day, the gods want us to unite with them and experience them with a profundity that can only come when we do that which feels right to our own person. If using more informal wording feels best to you, and that brings you closer to your deities, then I believe that is the path you should set yourself on. Happy Belated Solstice to you, Dear Jembru.
          I actually see your point! It's interesting, because although I think keigo isn't actually ancient, it probably does have the feel of being special somehow. I'm not very clued up on keigo, but as far as I can tell, it's jam-packed with words borrowed from Chinese isn't it? My guess has always been that, because reading was for the wealthier educated sects, showing-off by using Chinese words was considered sophisticated as it showed that you could read.. sorta like the way Latin words made it into English.

          I was PMing with Corvus recently and when trying to explain the difference between the different speaking styles of Japanese, I compared Keigo to the way people speak in British period dramas. The way they add long words and use complicated, embellished sentences, often speaking indirectly., 'I would be most humbled if you were to do me the explicit honour of escorting me to the pier..' Rather than, 'Will you take me to the pier please?' (oh how vulgar ^^). I explained how there is 'baito keigo', which I guess is what you get when those who haven't been specifically trained to speak this way try to use keigo, and I mentioned that there are courses in Japan that teach the natives to speak this way, so it's not something everyone can do. I for example, can't speak like I'm from Pride and Prejudice in English, although I know people who can! I'd have no chance of being able to speak proper keigo, but I understand enough of it to appreciate its elegance, and can see how, while it isn't 'ancient' as such, it would add that sort of feeling to a working. My choice however was just going for the plain-polite, 'masu/desu' style, or a sort of not too colloquial, but still plain form and the latter felt right. Maybe it is because plain-polite tends to create distance, so didn't feel right.

          Actually, the choice between masu/desu vs casual is something I really struggle with when new Japanese members come to the oshaberikai. I don't want to offend them by being too casual too soon, but neither do I want to seem cold. In particular a girl who just returned for uni, I noticed still uses 'desu/masu' to speak to me, but is dropping them much of the time when speaking to my language exchange partner. I don't know if it is because I'm speaking politely so she's scared to stop, or she feels closer to Miyo or it's because I'm quite a lot older. It's so awkward. Although to be honest, I struggle to stick to one style or the other anyway. ^^
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

          Comment


            #35
            Re: Linguistics and the Craft

            Originally posted by Jembru View Post
            I actually see your point! It's interesting, because although I think keigo isn't actually ancient, it probably does have the feel of being special somehow. I'm not very clued up on keigo, but as far as I can tell, it's jam-packed with words borrowed from Chinese isn't it? My guess has always been that, because reading was for the wealthier educated sects, showing-off by using Chinese words was considered sophisticated as it showed that you could read.. sorta like the way Latin words made it into English.

            I was PMing with Corvus recently and when trying to explain the difference between the different speaking styles of Japanese, I compared Keigo to the way people speak in British period dramas. The way they add long words and use complicated, embellished sentences, often speaking indirectly., 'I would be most humbled if you were to do me the explicit honour of escorting me to the pier..' Rather than, 'Will you take me to the pier please?' (oh how vulgar ^^). I explained how there is 'baito keigo', which I guess is what you get when those who haven't been specifically trained to speak this way try to use keigo, and I mentioned that there are courses in Japan that teach the natives to speak this way, so it's not something everyone can do. I for example, can't speak like I'm from Pride and Prejudice in English, although I know people who can! I'd have no chance of being able to speak proper keigo, but I understand enough of it to appreciate its elegance, and can see how, while it isn't 'ancient' as such, it would add that sort of feeling to a working. My choice however was just going for the plain-polite, 'masu/desu' style, or a sort of not too colloquial, but still plain form and the latter felt right. Maybe it is because plain-polite tends to create distance, so didn't feel right.

            Actually, the choice between masu/desu vs casual is something I really struggle with when new Japanese members come to the oshaberikai. I don't want to offend them by being too casual too soon, but neither do I want to seem cold. In particular a girl who just returned for uni, I noticed still uses 'desu/masu' to speak to me, but is dropping them much of the time when speaking to my language exchange partner. I don't know if it is because I'm speaking politely so she's scared to stop, or she feels closer to Miyo or it's because I'm quite a lot older. It's so awkward. Although to be honest, I struggle to stick to one style or the other anyway. ^^
            I too struggle with the politeness problem, so much so that I sometimes just mix everything up (though I do try to steer clear of ore, for the most part). As far as "high-caliber" English goes (as my best friend calls it), I love using it because it kind of helps me maintain the vocabulary that I've picked up, and sometimes I just get bored with using only the vernacular. And getting a little of topic, I just find British men who use embellished sentences (at least the ones in film). It just sounds so debonair! What do you think though?

            Comment


              #36
              Re: Linguistics and the Craft

              Originally posted by Simatong View Post
              I too struggle with the politeness problem, so much so that I sometimes just mix everything up (though I do try to steer clear of ore, for the most part). As far as "high-caliber" English goes (as my best friend calls it), I love using it because it kind of helps me maintain the vocabulary that I've picked up, and sometimes I just get bored with using only the vernacular. And getting a little of topic, I just find British men who use embellished sentences (at least the ones in film). It just sounds so debonair! What do you think though?
              Oh it's very pleasant to the ears. If only I didn't find period dramas so darned tedious, I'd watch them just for that. I erm.. actually they use a lot of words I don't know. My vocabulary isn't terrible and I do get accused of using 'big words' at work, but I am one of those who use words totally out of context. My partner, JP, shares your admiration of dapper gents!

              I mix speaking styles too in Japanese, especially when I'm nervous, which is most of the time! I tend to be too focused on remembering words, than thinking about grammatical accuracy or politeness level! One thing I've learnt since hanging out with the Japanese, is that the rules are quite hazy anyway!
              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

              Comment


                #37
                Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                Hey Jembru! Sorry for the long absence. Things have been kind of burdensome, I guess. But I am back now. How are the Japanese translations going?

                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                  Originally posted by Heka View Post
                  TL;DR

                  But I like using words in different languages sometimes. They're pretty and I feel more mystical :P
                  That's me with the Chinese I know X3

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                    Originally posted by Simatong View Post
                    Hey Jembru! Sorry for the long absence. Things have been kind of burdensome, I guess. But I am back now. How are the Japanese translations going?
                    Not great! Only bokusenou and I seem to be taking part now that we've moved to a new site, and I just have so little time right now. Even seeing my conversation group is proving hard, due to restricted time and funds (I went a little overboard on JP's Yule/Christmas presents and the cost of heating has gone crazy in this damned country). I've started up a little skype group so members of the conversation group can skype-call one another and keep up our speaking skills while we're not meeting face-to-face, and I'm even finding THAT hard to find time for. It's hard when JP is around because it feels a bit weird having what is basically a phone call on speaker phone, in a language he knows well enough to follow the gist of, while he's playing on the PS3. So yeah, I'm also pretty inactive right now.

                    Now back on topic: (lets try Japanese, since we keep saying we'd like to try discussing witchcraft in Japanese but never get round to it)...

                    今、日本語を話すに自信を吹き込んでさせるようの呪文を作り上げている。ある習得や試験力の上達ようのヒプ ノシス本の方法に即しているんだ。試してみるのに随分興奮しているわ。この呪文を日本語でするのは多分筋だ と思う。それより、そういうしないのはなんか非合理的でしょうね。
                    (I'm currently working on a spell for confidence speaking Japanese. It's actually based on a visualisation I found in a book of self-hypnosis for improving learning and exam performance, so I'm pretty excited to give it a whirl. I think I should probably perform this spell in Japanese. Apart from anything, I think not doing so, would be kind of counter intuitive.)

                    日本文化から物も使おうと思っている。例えば、縁起物としてダルマとか作るの。それも筋じゃん 。
                    (I'm also thinking of using something from Japanese culture, like making a daruma as a talisman. That's also probably a logical choice).

                    Btw, do you think 呪文 works for the kind of spells we're talking about? I think I may have got it from Kiki's Delivery service (it was on TV through the night recently with the original Japanese audio and subs! ^^).
                    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                      呪文は魔法が使えるように言われる言葉なのでこの場合には使われると思います。日本語のための呪文はいいア イデアで、日本の文化からのものを象徴として使うのも呪文を作るのに役立つだろうな。けれど、言葉を言わな いで魔法を使う場合はね~~Jembruさんは魔法についての質問に答える日本人の友達がいるなら聞いてく ださい。私も知りたいね。
                      僕も最近たくさんの仕事があったので「時間がある」というメッセージを書かなければよかったよ。そのメッセ ージを書いた後でクライアントから新しいアサインメントをもらって完成させて、その後もプロジェクトがあっ た。今は静かだけど、いつ何のプロジェクトをもらうかわからない。
                      そして、日本語と呪文なんかあわせて使うことについて、字で作られる恵まれたサークルを使うことをJemb ruさんがどう思う?                                 
                      Since "jumon" is used to refer words used when performing magic, I would think it could be used in this situation. Actually, spells for Japanese are a good idea, and using something from Japanese culture as symbolization would perhaps help with the making of spells. However, when it comes to magic done without words~~You should ask any Japanese friends you have who'll answer questions about magic, because I myself would like to know.
                      I've also been really busy with projects as of late, which is why I regret telling you that "I have time now"; after I wrote that message, I received a project and got it done, only to receive a new project after that. It's quiet at the moment, but I don't know when I'll receive what assignment.

                      Also, how do you feel about using characters for blessed circles?

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                        Originally posted by Simatong View Post
                        呪文は魔法が使えるように言われる言葉なのでこの場合には使われると思います。
                        私は同感だ。英語でおも「spell」はもともと魔法で使う言葉を意味したそうだ。それで日本語でも同じこ とだろうと思った。
                        That was my thought too. In English, apparently 'spell' originally referred to the words during spells. If so, I think the same could be true of Japanese.

                        Originally posted by Simatong;
                        字で作られる恵まれたサークルを使うことをJembruさんがどう思う?
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                          まあね~~祈り以外の儀式を行ったことがない(それは僕にとってとっても悪いこと。けれど、今の状況下では 、儀式に参加するのは無理だ)。それでも、水、火などの自然魔法に関する儀式を行うなら、大自然の力をもっ と激しく感じるかなと思う。日本語と魔法が好きだし、興味は心の奥にある魔法の力をもっと激しく呼び覚ます んだから。でも、今はね、儀式を行うことができないけれど、日本語で詠むなら何が起こるか本当に知りたいね 。
                          Well~~I've never really performed any rituals outside of simple prayer (which is a bad thing to me, but under the current circumstances, performing rituals is kind of out of the question). Still, if I were to perform rituals for water- or fire-based nature magic (as a few examples), I'd like to think that I'd feel nature's power much more intensely, because I like Japanese and magic, and these interests would awaken the mystical energies within my heart with more intensity. As for right now, while I can't do any rituals, I would like to know what would happen if I were to simply chant in Japanese~~
                          I am getting curious about this now

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                            Hey Simatong.. are you still around? I really hope so. Sorry I was missing for so long. I came out as pagan to the staff at Gaiwa though, and a few days later, a new member joined up who's hobby is making pagan head dresses.. 世間は本当に狭いね!

                            Anyway, I've had a huge overhaul of my practices and now there is a deity to whom I do speak Japanese! There is a big event coming up in a few weeks and I'm hoping to be able to network and get some more members for the Newcastle Japanese group. Naturally, I want my Japanese to be immaculate at the event. Okay, that's maybe asking a bit too much, but still, about a week ago, I sat in my bedroom and did a small ritual to help me with my nerves when I speak Japanese to strangers. I had such an amazing vision of the Goddess Isis. I used to worship her until about 8 years ago, but I thought my beliefs had changed and I was strictly celtic.

                            The vision was just too real, too vivid, for me to ignore though. I of course welcomed her back with open arms, but guess what... without any conscious effort, I just started blurting out Japanese at her! I sobbed my eyes out (I cry a lot in rituals.. I'm easily moved!), and just told her how I felt and how amazed and thankful I was that she came back.

                            Now exactly why an Egyptian deity came to me during a spell for better Japanese, or why I feel she wants me to speak to her in Japanese, I really don't know, but I've been really inspired since the ritual. I've charmed my notebooks, added visualisations to my pre-study warm up and started using self-hypnosis to clear away the voice in my head that tells me I'm no good and I can't learn.

                            During the vision, Isis gave me the symbol of a rose. I understood that the rose was to be a mental trigger for me. I had no idea what a rose had to do with either Isis or Japanese, but then later realised that the day planner and matching clipboard I use to plan my daily study sessions has roses on, and so does the new notebook I bought for studying during quiet time at work!

                            I also bought myself a rose scented body spray. When I'm having a good study session and I feel that my Japanese is coming out well, I spray the area and myself, to make an association between feeling confident in my Japanese and the smell. Of course, when the convention comes around a week on Saturday, I'll wear that scent and take it in my bad for regular top ups!

                            When I was a student, I used to combine witchcraft and study all the time, pretty much without even thinking about it.. it was just what I did! Yet I've never really thought to apply the same techniques to my Japanese study until now.

                            Oh and as I mentioned hypnosis; I've been using this cool guided meditation; http://youtu.be/Ccb5dId7Dv0 The sound quality unfortunately isn't so great, so I'm thinking of writing a transcript and re-recording it myself. There are other guided meditations in Japanese on youtube, but this is so far my favourite, because it's similar to a white light and heart chakra meditation I used to do when I was a student. It's such a shame about the sound quality.
                            夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                            Comment


                              #44
                              That all sounds awesome Jem. Good for you!
                              ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                              RIP

                              I have never been across the way
                              Seen the desert and the birds
                              You cut your hair short
                              Like a shush to an insult
                              The world had been yelling
                              Since the day you were born
                              Revolting with anger
                              While it smiled like it was cute
                              That everything was shit.

                              - J. Wylder

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: Linguistics and the Craft

                                Aww, looks like our resident pagan polyglot never returned. Hope he does one day!

                                Anyway, I just wanted to update. I kinda hope one of our Shinto members might stumble on it and throw in any ideas as to why 'Isis' would come to me as one of the kami (is there a Kami with a similar role to Isis, who may well be the same Goddess as viewed through Shinto?).

                                I now speak to all my deities in Japanese. It happened gradually but now it just feels more natural somehow. I use English too, but I now end all spells and rituals with 'yoroshiku onegai shimasu' rather than 'blessed be'. I also speak to my flat (long story, but my flat started communicating with me and now I talk back ^^), in Japanese. It makes absolutely no sense why I'd do this, but it feels right and it seems to answer so I don't think there is such a thing as a language barrier where spirits and gods are concerned.

                                I mentioned a Japanese hypnosis before didn't I? If Simatong isn't around, there's probably not much use in sharing the link (but here it is in case anyone is curious: http://youtu.be/Ue89I1dboFE), but I recently found an amazing guided meditation in Japanese. It is a general 'realise your wishes' meditation. After the usual deep breathing routine at the start, it connects you to the Earth Mother and then takes you though a really effective visualisation. She asks you to imagine yourself one year in the future, when you've achieved your goal, talking you through it in detail (who you're with, how you feel.. what expression you have on your face..) and then asks you to wind back the hands of a clock to a little while so that you're a few months before that point, and makes you imagine what you're doing at that point, towards achieving your goal, then it asks you to come back a little more in time, and do the same, then back again.. until asking you to consider what you need to do between now and that closest point, in order to be the person you saw.

                                It blew my mind the first time I listened to it. It is so versatile that you could use it with pretty much any goal, which makes it a great tool to use in spells too. I'm just gutted it's not in English so I could share it with more of my pagan friends. Maybe I could write an English version and make one myself...
                                夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X