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    Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

    There are three questions that I have been trying to understand about paganism and wanted to see what other pagans thought. The first was on the reason it collapsed by the Medieval period. I appreciate what has been discussed. This thread is on the second question why did paganism return and when did it become a functioning modern religion. Why revive a religion that was almost completely eliminated? I know there may have been some similar debates like this so please forgive me for starting this but I am interested in learning what other people think. Another way of looking at this question is what does paganism offer that was not present before its return.

    #2
    Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

    Originally posted by ethelwulf View Post
    There are three questions that I have been trying to understand about paganism and wanted to see what other pagans thought. The first was on the reason it collapsed by the Medieval period. I appreciate what has been discussed. This thread is on the second question why did paganism return and when did it become a functioning modern religion. Why revive a religion that was almost completely eliminated? I know there may have been some similar debates like this so please forgive me for starting this but I am interested in learning what other people think. Another way of looking at this question is what does paganism offer that was not present before its return.
    quoted so that membership using lighter themes can actually read your post.

    read this
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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      #3
      Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

      Thank you for pointing that out I did not know there were other backgrounds. I was using the one I started with. I will hopefully improve. Evidently when I import something I have written it does not show up on all of the backgrounds. There are three questions I have had concerning paganism which I wanted to know if anyone else had any opinions. This thread was imported from my computer and does not show up on the different back grounds.

      Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?
      There are three questions that I have been trying to understand about paganism and wanted to see what other pagans thought. The first was on the reason it collapsed by the Medieval period. I appreciate what has been discussed. This thread is on the second question why did paganism return and when did it become a functioning modern religion. Why revive a religion that was almost completely eliminated? I know there may have been some similar debates like this so please forgive me for starting this but I am interested in learning what other people think. Another way of looking at this question is what does paganism offer that was not present before its return.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

        There have been a number of periods in western history that have caused people to look back on pre-Christian traditions. Perhaps the earliest is during the Renaissance, when people began to crave a return to the greatness of the Greek and Roman civilizations. During this time period, you had a revival of various pagan schools of though such as Hermeticism and Neo-Platonism.

        Then there was the 1800's, which saw the rise of theosophy, which gave rise to Germanic mystics like Guido Von List, which claimed to be an ancient Germanic tradition. Romanticism and nationalism gave rise to some of the early pagan movements, and echoes of this can still be seen in certain branches of paganism, such as Heathenry and Rodnovery. Even neo-Druidism orignated partially from romanticism, and nationalism. A lot of these early traditions (prior to the 20th century) claimed to draw from an ancient pre-Christian religion, but were not inspired by any real goal for historical accuracy. Mostly, they were a way for an individual to claim to follow a religion or philosophy that had its roots in an ancient national ancestry. In reality, the philosophy itself was often some brand of western esotericism, or heavily Christianized.

        So there were revivals of interest in paganism throughout history, and many currents of modern neopaganism draw from those earlier revivals. Still, something definitely changed later in the 20th century. Traditional views like Christianity have lost considerable grip over the past century, which definitely has allowed alternative spirituality to grow slightly. I think better scholarship has played a role in creating a more historical brand of modern polytheism (revivalism and reconstructionism), but many still draw upon the older esoteric traditions mentioned above, as well as various elements that also increased during the 20th century such as Eastern spirituality and New Age. Really, I would say "Neo-Paganism" as we know it arose because the 20th century provided an opportunity for all of the above (Western esotericism, nationalism, romanticism, eastern spirituality, etc.) to circulate in the western world.

        Anyway, that's my best answer to a difficult question.
        If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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          #5
          Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

          After Yazichestov's answer I don't think there is much else to say. With that said I'll just comment on a few things instead.

          I don't think it really matters if a religion was eliminated or not because the value of a religion can't be judged on its popularity or the longevity of the culture it was born in.

          I think paganism has a lot of appeal in the West because it plays on that spirit of personal freedom and free thinking that has taken root over the past 200ish years. Christianity is just too stagnant. I also think that this "independence" will inevitably spell its second demise or at least its permanent exile to the fringe. There are very few organized groups to help establish any of the pagan faiths as official religions with places of worship, centralized teachings/orthopraxy etc. One of the things that helped Christianity rise to power so quickly was its integration into the governing bodies and the structure those bodies provided. Unfortunately very few pagan groups seem to understand how important this kind of thing is.

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            #6
            Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

            Originally posted by Yazichestvo View Post
            There have been a number of periods in western history that have caused people to look back on pre-Christian traditions. Perhaps the earliest is during the Renaissance, when people began to crave a return to the greatness of the Greek and Roman civilizations. During this time period, you had a revival of various pagan schools of though such as Hermeticism and Neo-Platonism.

            Then there was the 1800's, which saw the rise of theosophy, which gave rise to Germanic mystics like Guido Von List, which claimed to be an ancient Germanic tradition. Romanticism and nationalism gave rise to some of the early pagan movements, and echoes of this can still be seen in certain branches of paganism, such as Heathenry and Rodnovery. Even neo-Druidism orignated partially from romanticism, and nationalism. A lot of these early traditions (prior to the 20th century) claimed to draw from an ancient pre-Christian religion, but were not inspired by any real goal for historical accuracy. Mostly, they were a way for an individual to claim to follow a religion or philosophy that had its roots in an ancient national ancestry. In reality, the philosophy itself was often some brand of western esotericism, or heavily Christianized.

            So there were revivals of interest in paganism throughout history, and many currents of modern neopaganism draw from those earlier revivals. Still, something definitely changed later in the 20th century. Traditional views like Christianity have lost considerable grip over the past century, which definitely has allowed alternative spirituality to grow slightly. I think better scholarship has played a role in creating a more historical brand of modern polytheism (revivalism and reconstructionism), but many still draw upon the older esoteric traditions mentioned above, as well as various elements that also increased during the 20th century such as Eastern spirituality and New Age. Really, I would say "Neo-Paganism" as we know it arose because the 20th century provided an opportunity for all of the above (Western esotericism, nationalism, romanticism, eastern spirituality, etc.) to circulate in the western world.

            Anyway, that's my best answer to a difficult question.
            That is a very good summary of some of the events leading up to modern paganism. When I have looked into the early Druid societies of Great Britain, the free masons whose rituals were in part adapted from pagan rituals, and the other groups interested in pre-Christian religions prior to the 1900's, it is not clear that they actually saw paganism as their religion. Many of these people were intellectuals of their time fascinated with these pre-Christian religions especially the Greeks and Roman pagan as well as the Druids in England. Whether they believed in paganism as their religion or not they were heavily influential in the development of modern paganism.

            It seems to me that the repeal of the Witchcraft act of England in 1951 is when our modern paganism really began. Again I am not saying those before were not important and that there were not isolated people or groups of people practicing, but the appeal of this act allowed paganism to go public.

            Gerald Gardner brought his colorful and theatric pagan practice out into the open and felt comfortable publishing books about actually practicing Wiccan rituals after this repeal. This event took paganism from a more purely intellectual pursuit to an actual practice of paganism in the open. Groups other than Gardner's also became more public to attract people into paganism.

            The other fascinating aspect of paganism is why would it return. What did a religion like Christianity not provide that paganism did despite its early image of a religion which collapsed because it was replaced by the superior religion of Christianity. I suspect this answer is as diverse as the many different forms of paganism that have developed especially in recent years.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Claude View Post
            After Yazichestov's answer I don't think there is much else to say. With that said I'll just comment on a few things instead.

            I don't think it really matters if a religion was eliminated or not because the value of a religion can't be judged on its popularity or the longevity of the culture it was born in.

            I think paganism has a lot of appeal in the West because it plays on that spirit of personal freedom and free thinking that has taken root over the past 200ish years. Christianity is just too stagnant. I also think that this "independence" will inevitably spell its second demise or at least its permanent exile to the fringe. There are very few organized groups to help establish any of the pagan faiths as official religions with places of worship, centralized teachings/orthopraxy etc. One of the things that helped Christianity rise to power so quickly was its integration into the governing bodies and the structure those bodies provided. Unfortunately very few pagan groups seem to understand how important this kind of thing is.
            I completely agree with you. Christianity has been presented as the superior religion as the reason that paganism disappeared but I think your explanation is what really cased the loss of paganism. Christianity with its structure supported the Monarchy especially the Roman Catholic church with its hierarchy designed after the Roman Army. Paganism with its multiple gods and even worse goddesses must have been seen as a treat to the people in rule while Christianity taught people to accept their position. The king was appointed by God ( or at least a very good army). The removal of paganism must have been clearly to the advantage of the ruling classes of the Developing European countries.

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              #7
              Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

              I also think naturally, we idealize the past, and as a result, the things in our ancestral past. In this case, the religions of our ancestors. We live in an increasingly modern society, and we want to reconnect with the things we often feel like we've lost. A sense of meaning and connection with the world around us. Also, its often just a desire for a religion other than those we were brought up in, maybe something we connect more with only exists in the past? Instead of say, converting to Islam, Judaism, Christianity (if you weren't already), Hinduism, or any other modern mainstream religion.
              I was Hadad2008 when I joined Feb 2008.
              I became Abdishtar this spring.
              Then, after the Great Crash, I was reborn as Spartacandream!

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                #8
                Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                In some cultures paganism was never eliminated and thus never required a rebirth.
                Baltic paganism has been going strong for thousands of years and thankfully it has never been modernized or altered for today's people.
                My posts are generally sent from my cell fone. Please excuse my brevity, and spelling/grammar errors.

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                  #9
                  Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                  Originally posted by Auseklis View Post
                  In some cultures paganism was never eliminated and thus never required a rebirth.
                  Baltic paganism has been going strong for thousands of years and thankfully it has never been modernized or altered for today's people.
                  Most of the sources I can find indicate that Christianity did because a significant influence in the regions this would cover (primarily Lithuania) in the 1380's and wasn't really revived until the early 1900s. Wouldn't you think some things would be lost or modified in 500 years? Are there other resources I should be looking at?

                  I looked here http://www.romuva.lt/new/?page=en and here http://www.truelithuania.com/tag/baltic-paganism

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                    #10
                    Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                    I think part of the issue is it seem's a lot of people are equating folk and cultural practices as part of pagan spiritual / religious practices. While I think some may have more archaic spiritual / religious influences i'd not say they equate to a "Pagan" practice or the continuation of such a practice. By far I highly doubt that any western pagan practice is a continued pagan religion, at best they are romanticized attempts to reclaim something that seldom matches what they claim to be reclaiming. Figure that a lot of modern paganism owes it's creation to the spiritual movement from the late 1880's into the early 1920's and an attempt to recreate things in the late 40's and into the 50's. Though I do not think one can discount the Hippy movement of the 60's counter culture and the influence of eastern mysticism that came in with it. Think about the terms Chakra, Karma, etc that entered into western practices from that period.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                      #11
                      Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                      I think part of the issue is it seem's a lot of people are equating folk and cultural practices as part of pagan spiritual / religious practices. While I think some may have more archaic spiritual / religious influences i'd not say they equate to a "Pagan" practice or the continuation of such a practice. By far I highly doubt that any western pagan practice is a continued pagan religion, at best they are romanticized attempts to reclaim something that seldom matches what they claim to be reclaiming. Figure that a lot of modern paganism owes it's creation to the spiritual movement from the late 1880's into the early 1920's and an attempt to recreate things in the late 40's and into the 50's. Though I do not think one can discount the Hippy movement of the 60's counter culture and the influence of eastern mysticism that came in with it. Think about the terms Chakra, Karma, etc that entered into western practices from that period.
                      That's always what I assume. It doesn't invalidate the faith at ALL, but it makes it honest to admit where it comes from. That's always more appealing to me than false but romantic notions.

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                        #12
                        Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                        I'm with MonSno on this one. Plus I'd also like to add that 'paganism' is not a religion, but an umbrella term that has several definitions. Thus it's difficult to have a standard hypothesis (see Thalassa... I almost said theory but I changed it ) about why certain spiritual paths have been revived while others haven't. Because that's what we're really looking at here... 'paganism' isn't a religion that died off and was reborn in the modern era. It's a term used to denote a number of spiritual paths that have developed both as reconstructed paths and completely new paths. I'm not sure that there is just one answer to this question.

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                          #13
                          Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                          Thus it's difficult to have a standard hypothesis (see Thalassa... I almost said theory but I changed it ) about why certain spiritual paths have been revived while others haven't.

                          HAH! Yay...



                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          Figure that a lot of modern paganism owes it's creation to the spiritual movement from the late 1880's into the early 1920's and an attempt to recreate things in the late 40's and into the 50's. Though I do not think one can discount the Hippy movement of the 60's counter culture and the influence of eastern mysticism that came in with it.
                          I would say that there has long been a vein of mysticism and an attraction to "forgotten old ways" as a sort of Western sub-culture. I would also say that the 1880's is too late...look at Iolo Morganwg and the Druid revival, Rosicurinanism in the 17th century, etc. that *penchant* has always been there.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                            .. I would say that there has long been a vein of mysticism and an attraction to "forgotten old ways" as a sort of Western sub-culture. I would also say that the 1880's is too late...look at Iolo Morganwg and the Druid revival, Rosicurinanism in the 17th century, etc. that *penchant* has always been there.
                            Oh I agree there are many strands that play into what is today. It's just when you start looking at the structure of practices a whole lot of it is very similar to the 1880's to 1920's period, especially the focus upon individualism. Granted today there is more reflection to that period in the New Age aspect of things , channeling for example, than a lot of the "Pagan" individualistic aspects that are found today. In that regard it seem's more reflective of many of the magical schools where it was a school notion but also very much individual. Sorry if this makes no sense my head is a bit cloudy with pills and pain at the moment.
                            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                              #15
                              Re: Why did paganism return and when did it return as a modern religion?

                              I can't speak to the 'when' part of the question as I'm not a historian and have never had a good head for dates and such. But I can speak from personal experience and observations to answer the 'why' part. I agreed with the first part of Claude's answer in particular:

                              Originally posted by Claude View Post
                              I think paganism has a lot of appeal in the West because it plays on that spirit of personal freedom and free thinking that has taken root over the past 200ish years. Christianity is just too stagnant.
                              My family wasn't religious growing up, so I was left to make my own spiritual decisions (for which I'll always be thankful for). I turned to Christianity first due to the influence of my friends, but I found it lacking... The connection to God I had been looking for just wasn't there for me. Praying seemed to be a one way conversation. God was listening, but I wasn't supposed to hear him talking back. If I heard something, fear of being crazy and shame at my presumption would drown out any answer I might start to receive.

                              Turning to Paganism gave me the ultimate freedom; I can change my mind and follow whatever path strikes my fancy. It's more scary than following a single religion with well entrenched rules, but now I can cobble together the best of many religions; it's very liberating.

                              Americans have become overly obsessed with safety in recent years, but our backbone, the thing at our center, has always been our freedom. Our school children are still taught this and taught to look on that part of us with pride. I'm not as familiar with other places in western civilization, but I think freedom is something that individuals tend to greatly value. America, after all, is made up from individuals from all over the world.

                              I don't agree with the second part:

                              Originally posted by Claude View Post
                              I also think that this "independence" will inevitably spell its second demise or at least its permanent exile to the fringe. There are very few organized groups to help establish any of the pagan faiths as official religions with places of worship, centralized teachings/orthopraxy etc. One of the things that helped Christianity rise to power so quickly was its integration into the governing bodies and the structure those bodies provided. Unfortunately very few pagan groups seem to understand how important this kind of thing is.

                              I think the power of the internet is being forgotten here; the information is here for anyone to access. Even without official sanction or physical places of worship or rules and regulations, I think it will continue to fulfill a spiritual need that the major religions fail to adress. I think, eventually, it will grow in popularity, even if it isn't always called by the same name. I think it's a positive sign of humanity's evolution.

                              Wow, in my head that was a lot shorter and more concise; hopefully I managed to get some of my point across.

                              A quote from the movie, Dogma, that fits in with this some how for me is:

                              Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
                              Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
                              Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier...

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