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Thread: Neolithic Shamanism

  1. #11
    Copper Member Ula's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokabrenna View Post
    I read it. I posted a review of it on my blog if you want my more in-depth opinion.

    My major problems with it:

    1) The authors frequently talk down to people who are not shamans or spiritworkers. As in this quote about dealing with well spirits:



    What I find interesting about this quote is that those same "superstitious peasants" are the ones that kept Pagan traditions alive today when the upper classes converted. This just smacks of biting the hand that feeds you.

    The quote I found most troubling was this one:



    And here is my response:

    "I find this cavalier dismissal of cultural appropriation to be quite disturbing, especially the way “political correctness” in invoked (in my experienced, folks tend to cry “Political correctness!” when they want an excuse to be assholes) and claiming “but my ancestors said I had to do it!” does not absolve you from craptastic behaviour” nor mean that you are not participating in a culture of oppression against minority cultures. Seriously, my dad has First Nations ancestry though his grandmother, and that does NOT give him the right to take from those people."

    I would say it is ONLY a good resource if you're interested in spirit work WITHIN THE AUTHORS' TRADITION, but there are definitely better books out there.

    BTW, in case you're wondering about my bias, I'm publishing a devotional through Kaldera's press (Asphodel) and, let's say I have some....issues....with recent things Krasskova has said on the interwebs. However, I tried to keep my personal feelings out of it and write as balanced a review as I could.
    You haven't tried to be balanced at all. You were very supportive of these works until your falling out with them including threatening to leave the gods. You have insulted many in this particular community. I am shocked they would publish your book and even more shocked with all you have said your utilizing this community for something that will make you money.

  2. #12
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    You haven't tried to be balanced at all. You were very supportive of these works until your falling out with them including threatening to leave the gods. You have insulted many in this particular community. I am shocked they would publish your book and even more shocked with all you have said your utilizing this community for something that will make you money.
    I don't recall ever threatening to leave the gods based on what they said, I do recall saying that they have been saying things lately that might drive others away from the gods, and, regardless of my arrangement with Kaldera (which, I might add, was arranged long before the kerfluffles in question) doesn't mean that they are beyond criticism, or that I'm just going to sit there and keep my mouth shut about things that others might find problematic. If you read my review, you would see that I encourage reading the book for yourself and deciding whether it's going to be useful to you, and you'll also notice that I recommended one of their other books if this one wasn't to your liking.

    I fail to see how I've insulted many in the community, especially since I count Northern Tradition Pagans (some, you will be surprised to know, who are also critical of Krasskova and Kaldera) as my friends and none of the contributors to the devotional have said anything about it beyond "when is it coming out?" In any case, it's a bit too late to back out now.

  3. #13
    Sleepy Optimistic discord's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokabrenna View Post
    I don't recall ever threatening to leave the gods based on what they said, I do recall saying that they have been saying things lately that might drive others away from the gods, and, regardless of my arrangement with Kaldera (which, I might add, was arranged long before the kerfluffles in question) doesn't mean that they are beyond criticism, or that I'm just going to sit there and keep my mouth shut about things that others might find problematic. If you read my review, you would see that I encourage reading the book for yourself and deciding whether it's going to be useful to you, and you'll also notice that I recommended one of their other books if this one wasn't to your liking.

    I fail to see how I've insulted many in the community, especially since I count Northern Tradition Pagans (some, you will be surprised to know, who are also critical of Krasskova and Kaldera) as my friends and none of the contributors to the devotional have said anything about it beyond "when is it coming out?" In any case, it's a bit too late to back out now.
    I liked your review, Its honest , you explain why you have problems with elements of it without trashing the entire book or just telling people not to read it.
    Having read your review I am more tempted to read it that I was before.

  4. #14
    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Putting it in this thread, cos ForumRunner.

    Continuing to read this, just read the Green World section. Anyone work with Greenwights? What about local trees? I find often I get turned off this kind of this because I live in Oz, and there's no real guidance of this kind for my area. Nor is there generally big old Elder or Juniper trees around.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

  5. #15
    Opinionated Rae'ya's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    Putting it in this thread, cos ForumRunner.

    Continuing to read this, just read the Green World section. Anyone work with Greenwights? What about local trees? I find often I get turned off this kind of this because I live in Oz, and there's no real guidance of this kind for my area. Nor is there generally big old Elder or Juniper trees around.
    I don't do a lot with greenwights, aside from the few in my little garden (the roses, mainly). But I have had some amazing experiences with things like the huge Tingle trees in the Valley of the Giants in WA. And I always try to acknowledge the greewights when we go bushwalking, and we visit Botanical gardens when we travel to pay homage to them also.

    It is harder in Aus, because there's just no one out there talking about our native plants when they write books about herbs and/or greenwights. But then I look at greenwights the same as I do animal guides... rather than just reading someone else's experiences, go out there and form your own. Research the plant itself from a botanical point of view, then sit with it and connect. Start with the plants in your actual garden... connect with the individual spirits of the plant first, then with the overarching grandparent spirit.

    Greenwights are a bit like animal guides. Everyone seems to talk about the big ones like Oak and Elder and whatever. Think of those as the equivalent of Wolf and Eagle. Then think of our little Banskia or Bottlebrush as the equivalent to some of the less 'impressive' animal guides. Just because they aren't big and flashy doesn't mean that they can't be profound guides. Sometimes it helps to find the plants the would fill the same niche or have the same significance as some of the obvious European species. SA Blue Gum, for example. Many of the greenwights are intimately linked with the landwights, especially the big trees.

    Also keep in mind that we DO have a lot of the mentioned plants here, we just call them different things. Soursobs, for example, are actually a type of Wood Sorrel. And Wood Sorrel tends to be in a lot of the European and US centric herbals.

  6. #16
    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rae'ya View Post

    I don't do a lot with greenwights, aside from the few in my little garden (the roses, mainly). But I have had some amazing experiences with things like the huge Tingle trees in the Valley of the Giants in WA. And I always try to acknowledge the greewights when we go bushwalking, and we visit Botanical gardens when we travel to pay homage to them also.

    It is harder in Aus, because there's just no one out there talking about our native plants when they write books about herbs and/or greenwights. But then I look at greenwights the same as I do animal guides... rather than just reading someone else's experiences, go out there and form your own. Research the plant itself from a botanical point of view, then sit with it and connect. Start with the plants in your actual garden... connect with the individual spirits of the plant first, then with the overarching grandparent spirit.

    Greenwights are a bit like animal guides. Everyone seems to talk about the big ones like Oak and Elder and whatever. Think of those as the equivalent of Wolf and Eagle. Then think of our little Banskia or Bottlebrush as the equivalent to some of the less 'impressive' animal guides. Just because they aren't big and flashy doesn't mean that they can't be profound guides. Sometimes it helps to find the plants the would fill the same niche or have the same significance as some of the obvious European species. SA Blue Gum, for example. Many of the greenwights are intimately linked with the landwights, especially the big trees.

    Also keep in mind that we DO have a lot of the mentioned plants here, we just call them different things. Soursobs, for example, are actually a type of Wood Sorrel. And Wood Sorrel tends to be in a lot of the European and US centric herbals.
    I think mostly this comes down to my complete lack of actual research. I know I need to go out and do this myself, but it's also a long way off. I've fallen completely out of whatever practise I was doing, and am no where near the levels of dedication etc described in the book. It's just me expressing frustration at my lack of progress, dedication or knowledge atm I guess. Ah well. I'm sure I'll get there, someday. Lol
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

  7. #17
    Silver Member Tylluan Penry's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    I'll throw my hat into the ring too, for anyone who's interested... Sacred Shadows, Ice Age Spirituality, which is available as a very cheap Kindle download. (It's also available as a paperback from the Wolfenhowle Press Website - but outside the UK the postage costs tend to make Kindle a better option.) You can look inside the book too for an idea what is there.

    No exercises in this book - just a lot of information about spiritual aspects of the very ancient past. All properly referenced, too! The idea was to try and reach out to the ancient past we each carry within us... because I believe that the past never really goes away, we have it with us all the time. It does briefly refer to shamanism, within the context of characters such as the Bison Men or the 'sorcerer' at Les Trois Freres.

    Ooh, and one other thing... the Iron Age, Bronze Age etc., reached the far north MUCH later than it did the areas around the Mediterranean. These thawed out first after the Iron Age and then, while some tribes stayed put, others followed their herds northwards.

    My own favourite part of Sacred Shadows was discovering the engravings of La Marche - sheer magic!
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

  8. #18
    Cannibal Rights Activist Ophidia's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    All the neolithic Paganism I ever needed I got from the Clan of the Cave Bear books :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
    My own favourite part of Sacred Shadows was discovering the engravings of La Marche - sheer magic!
    OMGs, yes! The people! (I love Chauvet, too )
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

  9. #19
    Silver Member Tylluan Penry's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Quote Originally Posted by perzephone View Post
    All the neolithic Paganism I ever needed I got from the Clan of the Cave Bear books :P



    OMGs, yes! The people! (I love Chauvet, too )
    The Clan of the Cave Bear books are really incredibly well researched. I find it sad though when people lump together things like the Venus of Willdendorf and say, the Sorcerer at Les Trois Freres cave and just think of them as 'ancient.' The sorcerer figure is c. 13,000 years old, and the Venus is 13,000 years older than that again. Really, really mind boggling!
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

  10. #20
    Cannibal Rights Activist Ophidia's Avatar
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    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
    The Clan of the Cave Bear books are really incredibly well researched. I find it sad though when people lump together things like the Venus of Willdendorf and say, the Sorcerer at Les Trois Freres cave and just think of them as 'ancient.' The sorcerer figure is c. 13,000 years old, and the Venus is 13,000 years older than that again. Really, really mind boggling!
    Well, there's 'ancient' and then there's 'really ancient', lol. I'm currently trying to carve a wax Venus and it's so frustrating. I'm like, if it's so easy a cave person could do it, why can't I???
    The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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