Pagan Expansionism!

[Malflick]

From what I've seen, anecdotally, a lot of Pagans reject the very idea of an established religion, but of course it wasn't always that way, back in the day....

So how do you feel about the idea of converting people, or establishing a place like a temple, or an organized group? Is that something you wish would happen, or an idea you deplore? Why?

Thanks for your responses ^_^.

[Gleb]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

I am not quiet certain about this. Having some groups of different religions is great, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

[Torey]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

From what I've seen, anecdotally, a lot of Pagans reject the very idea of an established religion, but of course it wasn't always that way, back in the day....

So how do you feel about the idea of converting people, or establishing a place like a temple, or an organized group? Is that something you wish would happen, or an idea you deplore? Why?

Thanks for your responses ^_^.

I personally do not like the idea of organised religion full stop. These are only my feelings towards the matter - I have no cares if others disagree.

For my personal faith, I have absolutely zero desire to interact with other followers, much less "meet up" and "worship" or even have "study groups". It doesn't mesh with my personal practice and it doesn't conform to my beliefs.

I quite often see discussions about the creation of some kind of "Neo-Pagan commune" or large-scale multi-path Temple, etc. - I've seen discussions about forming something akin to a "council of magicians/witches/etc.". If others want to do that - go right ahead, but I won't be involved because I believe that the "holier-than-thou" attitudes will begin to creep into such bodies and power wars will emerge. A great many Neo-Pagans seem to believe that they are somehow above such things, but having been involved with so-called "Pagan communities" for a number of years, I've seen them broken apart by egos and power-plays and I honestly want no part of something like that.

[MyValenwind]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

Like actively converting people? Nahhh, definitely not. We'd end up with more of the same issue Christians have more prevalent, where they have the passive, kind Christians, and the fundamentalists being the loudest, most boisterous ones representing the faith. Not that we don't already have those few of our own, but it's less obvious because we don't really believe in converting people, else there would be more.
On the other hand, actively educating people on our personal concepts in Paganism is a better method, healthy debates, a method I personally find to be helpful on finding common ground and encouraging people that are curious about exploring spirituality outside the box of organized religion so they can experience the vastness around them. Just so that way it reaches back into the roots of spirituality rather than a hierarchy, like most other organized religions.
Wicca (not eclectic wicca), especially Gardenarian and the other orthopraxic coven based groups, isn't necessarily an organized religion like the others and doesn't have any conversion tactics, but it's a specific community, but even then things changed after a while, and now there's the whole Wiccan politics between "coven initiates" and "solitary initiates".
Sooooo, nah.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

I'm a solitary. I chose to be one. I would resist any attempt to join anything. I would not agree with everyone and they would probably throw me out - that is, if I didn't clobber someone first.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

From what I've seen, anecdotally, a lot of Pagans reject the very idea of an established religion, but of course it wasn't always that way, back in the day....

I tend to think Paganism as a whole has more Protestant Christian perspectives than actual archaic cultus practices influence. If one looks to most, if not all, archaic cultus practices they were very much about right living and right social / cultural perspective. There really was no such thing as a one-on-one relationship to a god / goddess or a whole pantheon that really didn't evolve as a concept until the Protestant movement. While one might be more dedicated or sworn to a given god / goddess that was usually more due to position or capability than a true love or devotion to said god / goddess. Consider women made offerings and such to Artemis for an easy birth and would journey to her sanctuary themselves or dispatch a handmaiden type person to make offerings and such in their name.

I also think many confuse the "Mysteries" and spiritual / religious practices from the archaic period and fail to separate them as archaic records suggest they were seen and acted upon. Again in many ways it was both right practice and right social / cultural perspective considering many mysteries were directed at one gender, social beliefs and mobility within that culture / social order. Consider for instance how Athenian Girls were expected to become Arketoia at the Sanctuary of Artemis and it was an expected civic duty type thing not something they as individuals elected to do for the Goddess Artemis herself.

So how do you feel about the idea of converting people, or establishing a place like a temple, or an organized group? Is that something you wish would happen, or an idea you deplore? Why?

Converting of people or proselytizing to them I am against. That is not to say I am against educated discussion of any practice or belief system with the acknowledgement that "Mystery" aspects can not truly be explained without a similar experiencing of them. Consider that most Pagan practices are not exposed or revealed religions so there is no "Book" for them and are very much in the mystery perspective where things have to be felt or experienced.

Personally I would not use a temple, shrine or sanctuary dedicated to a god / goddess who is not mine. Make it to generic in order to attract the most people and it to me is no longer a temple, sanctuary or shrine. Reminds me of the generic places where you find the flags denoting various belief systems scattered about the hall or eves so the iconography seems alien, at times even conflicting in energy. Other's, well lets just say I have no love for play land and that's what they remind me of.

Organized groups do not appeal to me as much of my individual mindset is Shamanic in nature. Within the pagan world it also seems organized almost always goes back to "Wiccan" in nearly all aspects and world views. Even when the word Witch is included it seems to be defined not against a magical practice but against a Wiccan or Wiccanish religious perspective and the dogma that comes with that.

Heathenism doesn't seem to suffer that when you hear of organizations but they tend to suffer the racial profiling perspective that gets played up though the group in question may not endorse such a position itself.

[Satu]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

I don't believe in proselytizing to get people to convert. If someone comes to me, wants to know about Kemeticism, and converts afterwards, then that's their business. My policy is always to share as much information freely as I can and let people make their own decisions from there.

Small, organized groups/temples/etc are okay so long as they don't try to establish themselves as the ultimate and final authority. I would love to find a small group of Kemetics (or at least Egyptian pagans) in my area or even online. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to find a group that isn't cliquish, sarcastic, and fractious.

[Gardenia]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

So how do you feel about the idea of converting people, or establishing a place like a temple, or an organized group? Is that something you wish would happen, or an idea you deplore? Why?

As far as temples and the like, there are some specific traditions/groups which have done that sort of thing. I'm not against the idea, and it might be nice to see some more growth in that area for those who are looking for that kind of thing. The issues are, of course, that pagans tend to be pretty diverse in belief and practice, and in any given area there might not be a big enough population of pagans to support this sort of thing.

As far as conversion, I have no interest in actively trying to convert people. I don't really think it makes sense from many pagan perspectives... most of the religions that have some focus on active conversion believe they're the only right religion, that they're saving people. That element doesn't exist in many pagan traditions. However, I do think it's important to be putting good, easily accessible information out there... not just for those looking for another spiritual option, but also to remove misconceptions and the like.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

I have no interest in converting people, but a multi-faith temple as meeting place for people and an accessible ritual space is a dream of mine. I think it would be a good thing for the community, helping to make it more approachable for pagans and those that are pagan curious.

[Riothamus12]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

From what I've seen, anecdotally, a lot of Pagans reject the very idea of an established religion, but of course it wasn't always that way, back in the day....

So how do you feel about the idea of converting people, or establishing a place like a temple, or an organized group? Is that something you wish would happen, or an idea you deplore? Why?

Thanks for your responses ^_^.

All in favor of establishing temples and building ones as grand as Christian cathedrals, but as for the talk of "convert or go to hell", not so much. I honestly think some people need some form of organized group, however, one should be careful not to emulate the more vicious elements of the churches past behavior which they have been moving away from in more recent centuries.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

I would prefer disorganized expansion, if that makes any sense. I can see organized religions emerging from neo-paganism, but they will only be as small islands in a sea of eclecticism.

I've met enough neo-pagans to know that some of them are not good for society. Some of the Russian Rodnovers out there are downright scary with their blind nationalism and ethnocentrism. The white-supremacist Norse pagans are very similar. A group like that expanding would be a worst-case scenario, in my opinion.

I think a growing pagan organization might do some good in this world, but only if it was a syncretic or universalist sect acknowledging divine insight from many cultures. I think the best possible end-game for any Neo-pagan expansion would be a free-for-all eclectic/syncretic global mishmash. Such a movement might even have a positive influence on people who didn't want to be eclectic; they could still cling to a certain tradition, but without necessarily rejecting all others as false. (i.e. what I do)

[dreamweaver]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

Not for me thank you.I need no Shrine or Temple as the whole world is one.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

As long as I'm at the leadership of the religious institution, sure, let's have sanctuaries dedicated to my awesomeness and stuff.

In all seriousness, I do agree with conversion as long as it's made through legitimate convincing and not forcing.

[Chris the Bold]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

I'd be cool with kindrededs organizing together, like the Asatru Alliance, so long as they maintained individuality. I would love for us all to convene annually and practice some of the old ways. I'm always looking for new takes on Norse paganism and insight into the old traditions.

[Malflick]

Re: Pagan Expansionism!

thanks for the replies so far!

The only person I remember being super "I really REALLY want to found a temple guys!" user here is no longer here, but I'm curious if there ever will be a more grounded/orthadox Pagan group that crops up somewhere in the USA. However, I can't really see it taking root easily because of the massive diversity of Pagans and as seems to be common in this thread, a feeling it just wouldn't be a good idea, because well, its not like that has always worked out as intended (looks over at some people of my own religion, sighs).

The idea of a sort of interfaith temple would be interesting, I could imagine it having multiple "chapels" so to speak for different religions, that might be cool. I don't know where it would be built or where the money would come from or if anyone would use it, but it would be cool XD.