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Thread: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

  1. #341
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    I want to apologize in advance for this - this is not my belief at all - but I have just been reading a bunch of junk by the likes of Mike Flynn et al., claiming that Islam is not a religion, that it is actually a political movement using religion as a mask.

    How would you respond to something like this?

    example, from Pat Robertson:

    ROBERTSON: The question would be, ladies and gentlemen, if a million Christians want to go to Saudi Arabia and say, "We want to pray," you can't pray in Saudi Arabia. You can't have religious literature in Saudi Arabia. You can't get together in Bible study groups in Saudi Arabia. As far as having special places for foot-washing and all that, no way. You will abide by Sharia law because they're in control.

    Ladies and gentlemen, we have to recognize that Islam is not a religion. It is a worldwide political movement meant on domination of the world. And it is meant to subjugate all people under Islamic law. In the Quran, it says it very clearly. There are two spheres. One is the Dar al-Harb, which is the realm of war. The other is Dar al-Islam, which is that part that's under submission to Islam. There is no middle ground. You're either at war or you're under submission. Now, that's the way they think.

    Now, sure, over here, you've got Islam light and you've got all these various things, but the idea is we don't want just accommodation, we want to take over and we want to impose Sharia on you. And before long, ladies are going to be dressed in burqas and whatever garments they would put on them, and next thing you know, men are going to be allowed to have wife-beating and you'll be beheading adulterers and so on and so forth. That's Saudi Arabia. We don't want that here in America. If they don't like it here in America, then let them go to Saudi Arabia, to Kuwait, to Yemen, to all those wonderful nations around the Middle East.
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 17 Mar 2017 at 10:52.
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  2. #342
    PF God-Empress Juniper's Avatar
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    Isn't that what the Crusaders did with Christianity?
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  3. #343
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    Seems like this interaction between these two Abrahamic branches has been raging for a VERY long time. I suppose one should also include Judaic belief also. It is Ironic that these 3 seem to follow the same deity,but can not come to an understanding about how this worship should be handled.

    Just my reasoning that religion can at times be one of the worst aspects of human interaction.(and this is just my considered opinion)
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  4. #344
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juniper View Post
    Isn't that what the Crusaders did with Christianity?
    That's bad.

    But I can be worse - isn't it one religion trying to control the laws and behavior of their population by claiming to maintain a set of laws and behavior based on a holy book than to claim that some other religion is trying to control laws and behavior of their population by forcing set of laws and behavior based on a holy book.

    (How's that for a linguistic mobeus strip?)
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  5. #345
    Fundamentalist Dumuzi's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    I want to apologize in advance for this - this is not my belief at all - but I have just been reading a bunch of junk by the likes of Mike Flynn et al., claiming that Islam is not a religion, that it is actually a political movement using religion as a mask.

    How would you respond to something like this?

    example, from Pat Robertson:
    Don't apologize! It's actually a very important topic that comes up a lot. So it has to be addressed. Now, there are many ways to answer this, and I'm not sure where to begin, so I'll just try to choose one way for answering this, but if you want me to focus more on other specifics I didn't directly address, please let me know!

    The question would be, ladies and gentlemen, if a million Christians want to go to Saudi Arabia and say, "We want to pray," you can't pray in Saudi Arabia. You can't have religious literature in Saudi Arabia. You can't get together in Bible study groups in Saudi Arabia. As far as having special places for foot-washing and all that, no way. You will abide by Sharia law because they're in control.
    The argument here is as follows, Saudi Arabia does X, therefor Muslims are (or Islam is) X.

    The simplest way to answer this is to point out that the House of Saud formed Saudi Arabia in 1938, that's when this country was formed. Islam came about 1400 years before that.

    And while he's right that Christians would face problems praying in Saudi Arabia, he's forgetting 2 important points:

    1. Muhammad, the messenger of God, allowed his Christian visitors (The Najran Christians) to stay in his mosque and pray inside. As in, not only did he allow Christians to pray, they did it inside his own mosque! Here's a translation from a Sirah (biography) book:

    "Ibn Ishaq said, "Muhammad bin Ja`far bin Az-Zubayr said that, `The (Najran) delegation came to the Messenger of Allah in Al-Madinah, entered his Masjid (Mosque) wearing robes and garments, after the Prophet had prayed the `Asr prayer. They accompanied a caravan of camels led by Bani Al-Harith bin Ka`b. The Companions of the Messenger of Allah who saw them said that they never saw a delegation like them after that. When their worship time came, they stood up to perform their worship in the Prophet’s Masjid. Messenger of Allah said: “Let them (worship)” and they prayed towards east."

    2. Muslim nations across the globe are full of places of worship for non Muslims. Egypt has a lot of historic and beautiful churches. Actually, the Egyptian Pope used to live in exile, because the Roman Church persecuted and killed Egyptian Christians, it wasn't until the Muslims defeated the Romans in Egypt, that he was told to come back because it was safe now for him.

    Also, in other countries like Afghanistan and Iran, things weren't always the way they are now. And I'm not speaking about ancient history, I'm talking about the 50's and the 60's. In Afghanistan universities were filled with women. Pat Robertson should really criticize his own government instead of Islam for how things changed there. During the cold war, his government decided to collect lunatics from around the globe to fight the soviets for them (see Rambo III for some laughs). When the war ended, those lunatics destroyed Afghanistan. In Iran they had a functioning democracy after revolting against the Shah. America directly interfered to bring that dictator back and catapult Iran to what it is today. So maybe Pat Robertson should have a word with his government officials for turning these countries into what they are today.

    In the Quran, it says it very clearly. There are two spheres. One is the Dar al-Harb, which is the realm of war. The other is Dar al-Islam, which is that part that's under submission to Islam. There is no middle ground. You're either at war or you're under submission. Now, that's the way they think.
    The burden of proof is upon him. Where exactly does the Qur'an say there are only two spheres? It's either a mistake out of ignorance or a lie. The Qur'an is very clear about matters of religious freedom and on how to treat non Muslims. There are many examples for these two topics but I'll mention two of them, that I think everyone should learn so you know how to answer and refute these people.

    And if your Lord had willed, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? [10:99]

    In other words, if God wanted to, he could have made all mankind believers, if that was his goal or will. Do YOU then want to force people to become believers against their will? Who do you think you are!

    Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. [60:8]

    This is the clearest statement on how a Muslim should treat a non Muslim, who's not waging war against him, nor driving him out of his home. I would like to point out that the Arabic word translated as kindness here, is used in another place in the Qur'an in regards to how one should treat their parents. In other words, Allah has chosen the same word for kindness in how we should treat parents and how we should treat non Muslims. This puts an emphasis and elevates the treatment of non Muslims, and how important it is.

    Now, sure, over here, you've got Islam light and you've got all these various things, but the idea is we don't want just accommodation, we want to take over and we want to impose Sharia on you. And before long, ladies are going to be dressed in burqas and whatever garments they would put on them, and next thing you know, men are going to be allowed to have wife-beating and you'll be beheading adulterers and so on and so forth. That's Saudi Arabia. We don't want that here in America. If they don't like it here in America, then let them go to Saudi Arabia, to Kuwait, to Yemen, to all those wonderful nations around the Middle East.
    Quick replies. Something that will scare Pat Robertson is that most of the American laws are already in agreement with Islamic law. Dun Dun Dunnn! I should point out that there is no book called Shariah Law where Muslims get their rules, rather it is the laws and rules that can be derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah of the messenger of God. So you'll find many different opinions across the different schools of thought.

    Women dressed in Burqas. As far as I know, only in Afghanistan do they have this law. In Iran and Saudi Arabia they also have a dress code for the head covering. No other country has this! And speaking of women and Muslims...

    What is the biggest Muslim country in the world? (since we wanna talk about examples) It's Indonesia. About 220 million Muslims. They had a female President. Last time I checked Pat Robinson never had a woman as a president.

    Maybe it's an exception? What's the second biggest Muslim country in the world? Pakistan. About 175 million Muslims. They had a female Prime Minister. Twice!

    Exception? What's the third biggest Muslim country? Bangladesh. About 125 million Muslims. They also had a woman as President. So looks to me that most of the Muslim world has no issue with electing a woman to be the leader of the country, pretty cool if you ask me.

    Anyways, I tried to cover all the points mentioned, but like I said in the beginning, if there's some area you want me to focus on, just let me know. Hope that helped!
    Do they not, then, ponder about the Qur‘an? Had it been from someone other than Allah, they would have found in it much discrepancy. [4:82]

  6. #346
    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
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    Thought, and this applies to all Abrahamic traditions - all the holy books have bits that can be taken out to mean "we are a lovely religion and we love you" and bits that can be taken out to mean "smite him". I have not read any holy book in full (im young, give me time) but i figure there would be a balance, and people just like to pull out the bits relevant to them.
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  7. #347
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    Thanks! Excellent response.

    I've known enough to know these guys are wrong, but I haven't known enough to have a good reply.

    Know I do.
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  8. #348
    Newbie Constantine's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    How do Muslim's generally view the era of the Crusades? Is it still held as a point of contention in some circles? Is it viewed as being Christendom's fault? Just curious.

  9. #349
    Fundamentalist Dumuzi's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    How do Muslim's generally view the era of the Crusades? Is it still held as a point of contention in some circles? Is it viewed as being Christendom's fault? Just curious.
    This is more of historical question than it is religious. The way a Muslim would study these events really depends on where they went to school. So a Canadian Muslim might have a different view than a Brazilian, Australian or Chinese Muslim, know what I mean?

    So the following answer is just my own experience which does NOT represent the views of all Muslims, it's just a personal answer from me, that has nothing to do with Islam as a religion and more to do with my own, lots of times flawed, understanding of certain historic events.

    The Crusades are viewed as the European rulers' attempt to invade and exploit the rich lands of the Arabs, misusing and misrepresenting Christianity to gain support from their people against the 'Infidel' Arabs. It's similar to what would later happen to South and Central America by the invading Europeans.

    Mostly, it's used as criticism of Europe at the time, politically speaking, and has less to do with Christianity as a religion. It is also worth mentioning that Salahudeen (Saladin) is held in very high regard among Muslim as a historical figure.

    On a lighter note...

    An old Egyptian movie about him can give you an idea on how we view these events, if you have 2 hours to kill But it has less to do with history and more to do with how the audience feels and thinks about the issues brought up when talking about the Crusades.



    It has English subtitles.
    Last edited by Dumuzi; 16 Apr 2017 at 00:54.
    Do they not, then, ponder about the Qur‘an? Had it been from someone other than Allah, they would have found in it much discrepancy. [4:82]

  10. #350
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

    i find this compelling and wish D was here to speak on it

    i think D would have understood my interest.



    - - - Updated - - -

    i find this compelling and wish D was here to speak on it

    i think D would have understood my interest.



    - - - Updated - - -

    not sure how i got two youtube links in here

    - - - Updated - - -

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