Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Thanks for the explanation, D! That was very en"Light"ening....giggles.

Seriously....Light upon Light -- I like it!

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Hey other D

;D

You know, that's a really good question and a good topic for discussion. I will try to make this as short as possible (but I warn you this is gonna be LONG), because I have a lot of things I want to say about this. But aside from this post, I know we both could probably share great point of views together

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=96.msg16179#msg16179 date=1290460925]
How do you, both personally, and as a Muslim, deal with the fact that the way people can experience Deity can be completely different? How do you explain it?
[/quote]

OK, I'm glad you asked about both how I deal with it about how I explain it.

Personally, and growing up learning about the fundamentals of Islam, I have been taught to not follow anything unless I can back it up with proof or evidence. I know that these words are not common in other religions, but they are very important in Islam, as I will show you in a bit.

So how do I deal with someone coming to me claiming they've just had a personal experience with a deity or that Jesus spoke to them last night confirming the Triune God?

It's quite simple. I will just show them a statement that was repeated a few times in the Qur'an, where the author of the Qur'an is speaking directly to Polytheists, Jews and Christians.

"Bring your proof, if you are truthful"

You can't rely on so called personal experience in order to try to convince me of your claim. They would have to give me something I can check for myself. Something that I can put to the test. So unless they can back up what they say to me, they have no grounds to stand upon and I have no reason to believe them. The burden of proof is on them.

Of course, the same applies to me. But the thing is if you ask any Muslim on why they believe what they believe, they will tell you it's because of such and such. They will always give you evidence for it.

I can show you the Qur'an so you can see the arguments yourself. Or I can show you articles and lectures on what evidence we have for our religion, since most people don't want to read the Qur'an right away, especially if they can't speak Arabic.

Granted, people might not accept that evidence and reject it, but at least there's something there to ponder about. Plus, it's a whole other discussion, because I believe the signs of god are very clear, but some people refuse to at least look at it. Think of it as someone who has blindfolded themselves. They will never see the sun, no matter how bright the sun shines. So first they need to remove the blindfold.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get off topic and sound like we're in the Matrix :P But I think it still makes sense.

As for your second question, how do I explain it?

First, I'd like to point out that I claim that the Qur'an contains the exact words of god. Don't forget that this Qur'an was transmitted to us through a man called Muhammad that lived about 1400 years ago claiming an angel revealed this to him in the span of 23 years.

So whatever reasons I give in order to explain those experiences, or whatever arguments I make against those claims, I have already applied to my own source.

The easiest way to explain it is to talk to the individual specifically, and ask them questions about their experience. Given enough time, lots of explanations can be reached. But it really varies from one person to the other so it depends on what they claim has happened to them. Generally speaking it is important to understand that our emotions can be very subjective.

A person reading Hindu scripture might experience an extraordinary spiritual feeling similar to one reading the Bible, similar to one reading Mein Kampf.

So one shouldn't rely on that alone to explain things. But let me give you an example of what goes in my mind when someone says that a god spoke to them.

Did you actually hear a voice from outside your head? Where are they from and what language was the god speaking? Was it speaking English? What accent?

Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm trying to show you that things like that can very much result from our own brains trying to tell us something or convince us of something we so desperately want to believe. Of course, that's just one example of how I would explain it.

But I don't want to sound too closed minded, so I'd say to you it depends on the person talking with me. I'd gladly sit with them and discuss this topic with them. But to be honest with you, I can list one hundred different explanations for their claims.

I just want to finally add that sometimes it's just too obvious in some religions how humans have made up their own gods. I know that some would say that applies to all religions, but in my opinion some times it's more obvious than usual. Which is why I think when asked about gods, lots of people start talking in terms of symbols and entities that get their power from our faith and so on, rather than talk about an actual living, existing god. It's like deep down they know those are just names that humans have named.

And I'm just speaking for myself here, I can't follow something I doubt even just 1% that it's not purely from god. So if someone would ask me, I'd tell them to clear their mind first, use their own intellect, before they follow something that is not based on something firm.

[Dez]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Thanks for that. It was a very interesting read, and I have quite a bit to think about.

In light of what you said, what is your evidence for Islam? Why do you consider it to be the most logical and (therefore) valid option? Can you point to evidence outside of scripture (since multiple old and longstanding religions can point to scripture that is more or less structurally sound)?

[Medusa]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

While talking to a friend about her mother. She came to find her mother believes those who commit suicide will go to Hell. What is the Muslim view on suicide? I mean past that it's wrong. Do suicides go to Hell?

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=96.msg16269#msg16269 date=1290473700]
Thanks for that. It was a very interesting read, and I have quite a bit to think about.

In light of what you said, what is your evidence for Islam? Why do you consider it to be the most logical and (therefore) valid option? Can you point to evidence outside of scripture (since multiple old and longstanding religions can point to scripture that is more or less structurally sound)?
[/quote]

You're welcome!

The short answer to the evidence for Islam is the Qur'an. It proves through it's content that it is not the product of any human mind, especially not one that existed 1400 years ago.

It provides arguments, evidence and falsification tests in order prove this claim.

Before I give you the long answer, I wanted to clarify something I said earlier. I didn't mean to imply that spiritual experience is a bad thing, nor was I attacking people who have them. Actually it's something that is very important. And I firmly believe that if someone were to sincerely just address god directly (or their creator or whatever if the word "god" brings negative memories to them) and just say to him, if you are there, guide me, god willing he will guide them to the truth. And it will bring a spiritual feeling like no other. There is a sweetness to this religion like nothing else. Why do you think we Muslims worship god 5 times a day, for example? Where do you think this devotion comes from?

I am just saying that I don't think those feelings should be the ONLY thing we rely on. Actually, when those feelings have an origin from our mind that is based on certainty, it will increase the faith and feelings we have in our hearts at least 10 fold.

Now let's get back on topic!

In light of what you said, what is your evidence for Islam? Why do you consider it to be the most logical and (therefore) valid option?

There are two things to consider here. Evidence that supports Islam, and evidence that speak against other religions and other options.

Growing up I've always tried to learn more about Islam and try to find evidence for that religion, because I didn't want to be Muslim, just because my parents were Muslim. After all the Qur'an criticized people who just followed a religion because they were born into it. And later I also wanted to learn about other religions, and see if there is something else out there.

Now I'm not gonna give you a list as to why I reject all other religions, and of course I don't go to people telling them why I think they are wrong. But if I sit with someone on a one to one basis, and they want me to share my opinion regarding what they believe and so on, then maybe I can tell them why, on a logical and rational level, I reject their religion.

But let's go back to evidence for Islam, since I think that's what you are specifically asking about.

There's a lot of ways to go about it, but I will share with you one of them.

The Qur'an is the basis of Muslim belief. A lot of prophets were supported by signs and miracles, but those are limited by time and space. So it's only fair that the final prophet would give us a sign that can remain with us forever.

Now, the first person speaker in the Qur'an claims to be god. And he starts giving arguments against people who think otherwise, while making arguments to support his claim. It's actually like a dialogue in some cases. He does that to clear the minds of people of misconceptions and false ideas. (Think of the blindfold and sun example I spoke about in my last post). But then he would also give evidence of what he is talking about.

For example, he would say that he created humans and it's easy to create them again. And if you are in doubt, well here's how I create them. And then the Qur'an goes on describing human embryos in such a way that is both 100% accurate and also mentioning things no one knew back then.

Another example is when god claims to have created the heavens and the earth and then goes on, FYI, here's how I did it. And again, it's both accurate and mind blowing.

The Qur'an does the same thing regarding seas, mountains, animals and what have you. But that's not the only thing it does. It also offers you falsification tests. For example, in one verse god asks the readers in a very confident way, why they don't think carefully about the Qur'an, because if it was not from god, then they would have found in it many mistakes. Of course, the phone book doesn't have mistakes, doesn't mean it is from god.

However, if you examine the type of information talked about in the Qur'an, it becomes amazing how there is not a single mistake or contradiction there. (BTW, I can give you links to websites that have lists of so called mistakes in the Qur'an, but I can also show you evidence against them). Logic follows that if you were able to find a lot of mistakes in it, then you would prove it was man made.

And that's just one "line" that points towards Islam. There are many more that point towards the same direction. Like the author of the Qur'an also supports his claim by giving predictions and talking about history not known at the time and so on.

Another interesting falsification test that is repeated in the Qur'an, is the challenge it offered its audience. God is like, if you are having doubts about this, then try to produce a book like it. And then later on it challenges people to produce one chapter like it. Later on it's even reduced to just 10 verses and so on.

If they were able to make up something like it, they would have proven that it's just man made. But they couldn't. And the challenge is still there.

However, this deals more with the linguistic (the rhyme, grammar, syntax, eloquence etc) miracle of the Qur'an. The Arabs back then, mastered the Arabic languages, they wrote the best kind of poetry and stories back then. And yet here came Muhammad, who never recited poetry, and didn't even know how to read or write, and started reciting something to them unlike anything else. You know, a lot of those Arabs became Muslim just because they heard the Qur'an being recited.

But I won't go further into this point because obviously you'd have to understand Arabic to appreciate it, and I don't want to mention something that I won't be able to show you, without having to really explain things. (And this post is already too long).

So I'll end with this...

What I've mentioned are just a few "lines" that all meet in Islam. There's more, but even those alone for me are enough.

Another thing to consider is that all previous prophets also point out to Islam. Even if we look at the Bible through all the changes people made to it and the distortions, you will see traces of Islam there. Even Jesus Christ himself only preached about submitting to the will of the father, and not his own will. (Read the Lord's Prayer for example). Heck, in one part of the Bible he even prostrates to god and puts his face on the ground (same way Muslims worship god) and tells god that he will accept his will.

Islam, after all, is just the Arabic word for submission. Submission to god purely, and to his will alone. On his terms and not the terms of anyone else. I don't need anyone else to tell me how to worship my own creator.

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=96.msg16269#msg16269 date=1290473700]
Can you point to evidence outside of scripture (since multiple old and longstanding religions can point to scripture that is more or less structurally sound)?
[/quote]

Yes. All things we see around us are created. And if we put aside the word god for a second, we can logically say that something had to cause this to come into existence. Perhaps, that cause had another, and that one had another. But in the end, there is one cause that caused everything else to be here.

And if we just use our minds here, we can really describe how that cause had to be in order to create all this. It is the creator of everything. It has to be eternal or else it's not the cause that created everything. It has to be self sufficient, because it exists without the creation it created. It's really powerful, because it caused all this to exist. Must have been very knowing to plan all this. And so on.

The Creator / Self Sufficient / Eternal / Knowing / Powerful etc are all attributes given to god in the Qur'an. And I am simply acknowledging that there is something there more powerful than me, that I like to ponder about a low. And that's EXACTLY what the prophets of god were doing before receiving revelation from god. That's what being Muslim is about.

Of course, one might argue if that "cause" communicates with us, or if it will judge us for our actions, or if it has sent it's only son to save us and so on. And that's where revelation comes into place. After proving it's from that "cause" I willingly choose to follow it.

[Dez]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

You know, Dumuzi, it is really fascinating to me that while I respect the way you see the world, but don't agree with a lot of it for the same reason I can't deal with the certainty of LDS theology(I start to see it as circular logic), that when we get down to brass tacks: *what* god is, the Ultimate Good, there ends up being a lot that we share in common.

Past that, the details that we see differently, about how that Ultimate Good is manifested, or what should be done to worship said being, aren't really quite that important in the big scheme of things.

It makes me rather sad that most of the LDS people I know have such a poor impression of Muslims. I think that they'd find that they had a lot in common that was very positive, if they just opened their hearts up a little bit.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=96.msg16519#msg16519 date=1290538980]
You know, Dumuzi, it is really fascinating to me that while I respect the way you see the world, but don't agree with a lot of it for the same reason I can't deal with the certainty of LDS theology(I start to see it as circular logic), that when we get down to brass tacks: *what* god is, the Ultimate Good, there ends up being a lot that we share in common.

Past that, the details that we see differently, about how that Ultimate Good is manifested, or what should be done to worship said being, aren't really quite that important in the big scheme of things.

It makes me rather sad that most of the LDS people I know have such a poor impression of Muslims. I think that they'd find that they had a lot in common that was very positive, if they just opened their hearts up a little bit.
[/quote]

You know, I find it fascinating that although we have disagreements theologically speaking, you are being so gracious and pleasant about how you handle yourself. D, whatever religion you choose to follow in the future, don't ever lose that!

And I still think there is common ground in what you and I believe

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=cesara link=topic=96.msg16182#msg16182 date=1290461544]
Thanks for the explanation, D! That was very en"Light"ening....giggles.

Seriously....Light upon Light -- I like it!


[/quote]

You're welcome! Thanks for taking the time to read my reply

[quote author=Medusa link=topic=96.msg16396#msg16396 date=1290501851]
While talking to a friend about her mother. She came to find her mother believes those who commit suicide will go to Hell. What is the Muslim view on suicide? I mean past that it's wrong. Do suicides go to Hell?
[/quote]

Yes, it's considered a very bad thing that can lead someone to go to hell, god forbid.

However, it also depends on the mental state of that person. If someone has a condition where their thinking is blocked and they lose control over their actions, they are not held accountable. So in the end god knows best.

[Dez]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=Dumuzi link=topic=96.msg16541#msg16541 date=1290542669]
And I still think there is common ground in what you and I believe
[/quote]

Oh, I'd agree In particular when it comes to who Jesus was, and what his role was in the universe, our conversations have helped me put into words so many things that I had always wanted to express, but never felt able to.

In some ways I've honestly felt a little bit like a "traitor to the cause" given the way my opinions and beliefs have changed over the past few months, though. A (small and a little over self-conscious) part of me starts to worry about discussing those changes with you sometimes.

For me, though, coming to see God as male *and* female has been a life-altering, and joyful experience, and has helped heal a lot of the pain I experience from the religion I was raised in. While in my case, I've come to see the Divine as two beings, creating the perfect whole through their complimentary natures, the way you see God is all encompassing, self-sufficient (I LOVE that being an attribute--I've never noticed it before, so I'm not sure if it's present outside of the Qur'an) and ultimately extremely loving. There is nothing about that I don't see as very positive and uplifting in an often dark and discouraging world. We need all of that we can get, even if the details differ (and don't worry, I don't plan on EVER giving that optimism up!).

[Medusa]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

However, it also depends on the mental state of that person. If someone has a condition where their thinking is blocked and they lose control over their actions, they are not held accountable. So in the end god knows best.

Eh. So here we go.....

1. Who is actually SANE that commits suicide?
2. What if it's a person with a terminal illness and is in pain etc? And they want to end their life before the bad pain really takes over their body? Do they go to Hell because they want out of the unbearable pain?
3. What is not a valid condition? What would be a scenario where someone took their life that didn't get a pass out of hell?


It seems like the rule is really there to sort of scare sane people not to kill themselves. But crazy people can't even pay attention and will not go to hell in the end because..they are crazy.



*edit. oh wait. Suicide bombers. What are they reading that makes them think it's ok to commit suicide via bombing and go to heaven? If it's a sin, how come they do it in the name of?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

Granted I'm not Muslim so I can't speak on theological grounds and I'm definitely not into suicide bombings (note I'm still breathing...I think) but suicide and self-sacrifice are rarely treated as the same thing in any culture. Example would be the difference in reaction if

1) Imaginary person Bob decides life sucks and he's gonna jump off a bridge to end it.

2) Imaginary marine Fred tosses himself over a grenade knowing it'll probably kill him but also knowing that he has good odds of containing the shrapnel and limiting the shockwave, thereby saving his friends.

Bob is suiciding for his own personal reasons. He can't be bothered to stick around and see how life goes. Fred may absolutely love life but he can't allow his friends to die and if that costs his life then it's an even trade. To borrow from Christ but I'm pretty sure it merits the same honor in Islam

"No greater love than this, that a man give up his life for his friend." (paraphrased, I think the original is different)

I don't like applying it to suicide bombers for a variety of reasons that are far outside the context of the thread but if I had to guess at their mindset then their belief would be that they are offering their life in service to a greater good and therefore the action falls under self-sacrifice not simple suicide.

[Shahaku]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=MaskedOne link=topic=96.msg16651#msg16651 date=1290559037]
Bob is suiciding for his own personal reasons. He can't be bothered to stick around and see how life goes. Fred may absolutely love life but he can't allow his friends to die and if that costs his life then it's an even trade. To borrow from Christ but I'm pretty sure it merits the same honor in Islam

"No greater love than this, that a man give up his life for his friend." (paraphrased, I think the original is different)

I don't like applying it to suicide bombers for a variety of reasons that are far outside the context of the thread but if I had to guess at their mindset then their belief would be that they are offering their life in service to a greater good and therefore the action falls under self-sacrifice not simple suicide.
[/quote]

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=Deseret link=topic=96.msg16559#msg16559 date=1290544616]
In some ways I've honestly felt a little bit like a "traitor to the cause" given the way my opinions and beliefs have changed over the past few months, though. A (small and a little over self-conscious) part of me starts to worry about discussing those changes with you sometimes.
[/quote]

Please, don't!

I do understand where you are coming from. But at the same time I believe having discussions with other can be very helpful, to BOTH sides. So I really enjoy having those discussions, but you can already tell from my long posts. So perhaps I enjoy them too much :P

For me, though, coming to see God as male *and* female has been a life-altering, and joyful experience, and has helped heal a lot of the pain I experience from the religion I was raised in. While in my case, I've come to see the Divine as two beings, creating the perfect whole through their complimentary natures, the way you see God is all encompassing, self-sufficient (I LOVE that being an attribute--I've never noticed it before, so I'm not sure if it's present outside of the Qur'an) and ultimately extremely loving.

Yeah, that's the part where I think our point of views meet and disagree at the same time!

Like I totally understand how growing up thinking of god as a male or as a father would make you want to find the other half of the divine so to speak.

On the other hand from my point of view, ascribing a gender to god is something that we just don't do. Because god is way beyond and above that. It kinda falls under the category of being self-sufficient. Cause if god has a gender then they will need an opposite gender to compliment them and complete them. In that sense it wouldn't be god anymore, who doesn't need anyone.

For example, if someone tells me god is male, I start to think about what they are actually saying. Does that mean god has a beard and a prostate gland? So to me it just seems like humans trying to use their own brush to paint god, who's way beyond their limited understanding.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=Medusa link=topic=96.msg16636#msg16636 date=1290556739]
Eh. So here we go.....

1. Who is actually SANE that commits suicide?
2. What if it's a person with a terminal illness and is in pain etc? And they want to end their life before the bad pain really takes over their body? Do they go to Hell because they want out of the unbearable pain?
3. What is not a valid condition? What would be a scenario where someone took their life that didn't get a pass out of hell?


It seems like the rule is really there to sort of scare sane people not to kill themselves. But crazy people can't even pay attention and will not go to hell in the end because..they are crazy.
[/quote]

The thing about suicide in Islam is that it is considered as an act of killing, as in it falls under the category of murder. It is true that you aren't killing someone else, but you are still killing a living being which god has made forbidden. Killing is a very big no no in Islam. Of course, one might argue that killing in self defense and so on is allowed, but that is the exception. The general rule is that you don't kill.

And I can think of a lot of examples. The girl who's daddy didn't get her a pony for her 16th birthday. The emo guy who's girlfriend broke up with him and he just can't live without her. The man who lost his job/wealth/wife/child and thinks his whole life is ruined now.

In the end only god knows what went on inside that person's mind the moment they chose to kill themselves. So whether it was an act of insanity or an act of ungratefulness is up to god to decide.

*edit. oh wait. Suicide bombers. What are they reading that makes them think it's ok to commit suicide via bombing and go to heaven? If it's a sin, how come they do it in the name of?

I'm not a scholar and I'm not qualified to issue a ruling, but I've heard two opinions amongst scholars about that subject.

Before I start I want to point out that when I say two opinions, I'm talking about the act itself as a way to fight your enemy, and NOT the act of killing women and children and so on. There are no different opinions regarding that, because there are clear texts that speak against it.

One group of scholars said that it is not allowed because like I've pointed out earlier killing yourself is not allowed and because the Qur'an in one verse says 'do not throw yourselves into destruction'. And they said, there is a distinction between the intention of going into battle ready to die for others, and the sole intention of killing yourself.

On the other hand scholars have said that it should be allowed only when you don't have any other means of fighting. In that sense, if you do it and it serves as a way to defeat your enemy, then you would have saved the lives of many who could have died.

MaskedOne actually raised up a very important point.

Putting aside the topic of suicide bombing, dying in battle is a very big privilege in Islam. Actually, for us Muslims, going into battle (for the right causes of course) is a win-win situation. Either we will defeat out enemy and gain victory, or we will die in battle and gain paradise.

Sucks for you though, if you get captured :P

Anyways, if you have more questions about suicide let me know.

[cesara]

Re: Questions about Islam (Ask Away!)

[quote author=Dumuzi link=topic=96.msg18004#msg18004 date=1290938539]
Putting aside the topic of suicide bombing, dying in battle is a very big privilege in Islam. Actually, for us Muslims, going into battle (for the right causes of course) is a win-win situation. Either we will defeat out enemy and gain victory, or we will die in battle and gain paradise.
[/quote]

Sorry for interrupting, but this brings up a question for me...I hope this doesn't come out as disrespectful, but I'm finding it hard to word my question/s just right...lol.

1. What exactly would be 'the right cause' for an action of war?
2. Do you think that this ideology/belief is conducive to an environment where people actually search for an opportunity [read: right cause] to war?