Controversy Over Blood Sacrifice

[Unus Mundus]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Unus Mundus ... no I am not in a passive aggressive mode... it is a simple question for those who believe in animal sacrifice. My point being that humans are still another animal in nature so if an individual agrees with animal sacrifice then they must agree with human sacrifice too?

I apologize for that comment... I just was assuming, which as it goes, one should not do if they wish to remain anything but an ass. : P

[Bjorn]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

I do not currently practice sacrifice in my practice but I see nothing wrong with it. Death is a part of life and by taking it I do not feel like this blasphemes the cosmos or the greater good. Life requires death in order to sustain itself throughout the ages -- however, I do not like needless death, vengeful killing, or blood used against others. I am much more of a naturalist in that regard: the hawk eats adorable bunnies, man shoots hawk with an arrow in order to eat, vultures pick clean the carcass once it's been discarded, and ants and bugs take the bones into the earth to complete the cycle. Death isn't something to joke around with but it's not as evil as everyone seems to think. Life is only as important as Death and vice versa. Neither is evil or unnatural.

HOWEVER, death in the natural world facilitates life, so if I were ever to use it in my practice that is the only reason I would kill an animal myself. Therefore, I would decide what my purpose was well before the sacrifice and then make full preparations for the carcass -- either to eat and donate to a hungry family, or what have you -- so that everything, from inception to fruition, would be respectful, hygienic, and safe. My knowledge of what to do afterwards is limited so I would be unable to skin and harvest the body for the bones and parts that I want but I wouldn't think twice about blood, bones, skulls, rattles, pelts, wings, claws and other medicine items made from the fruit of a sacrifice. In fact, I'd love to know how.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Does the animal know that it's soul is being given to your deity? As I see it, that soul is not yours to give. I'm not arguing against it. If ya wanna do a little prayer or a thanks before eating it's flesh, do so. Just don't act as if the animal about to be eaten is being done a favour. Your gods are not it's gods.

Can you say its not? From an animist perspective the creature is aware of its purpose and function in the cycle and offering as both an individual spirit and as an aspect of the super spirit that is encompassing of the entire species. From a shamanic aspect it's one of the reason why a person would go into trance / journey work to connect to the spirit and make offerings and such to both the individual and the super spirit of the species.

For the record, I don't like the eating of meat, "sacrifice" or otherwise. It's not something I fight against, or argue tooth and nail against (because frankly, I'm not gonna get anywhere with that even if I wanted to). I'm just sharing my opinion, and that opinion is that killing an animal and giving it's soul to god/s is more akin to theft than sacrifice. It's taking something that doesn't belong to you.

Myself I have no problem with eating meat that's why as a species we are omnivours. Why we have grinding teeth and shredding teeth to rip and tear and well as grind up our food. We gain nourishment from animal and plant sources.

[Quetzal]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Can you say its not?

No, I suppose I can't. I don't claim to know the workings of a soul, or even if it exists. I can only say what I see with my eyes, and what I see are animals that do not want to die, that will do their utmost to avoid being killed, dying for the pleasure or spiritual fulfillment of men.

We gain nourishment from animal and plant sources.

But we don't need nourishment from meat anymore. We kill animals still because we enjoy it. Because we like how they taste. Not so we can survive. (Again, this depends on individual belief. You could see animals as equal in terms of spirit to plants for all I know, or as lesser beings to us. I just know that I feel better about taking the life of a being with no brain with which to feel pain or emotion and only those beings, than to take the life of a fellow animal (though I wouldn't take any life if I could avoid it. I'm not sure about the potential health risks of fruitarians)).

[Kahlenda]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Hmmm it is a tough when because people feel very strongly about it and yet don't want to seem to be telling another person they are wrong.

Personally i do not sacrifice, offerings yes bt sacrifice no. I don't see a reason to do it and i believe it was a silly superstition that grew up some where that the gods need sacrifices. (sorry i don't intend to belittle anyone's beliefs thats just how i see it) however i would be interested to know if anyone that does sacrifice has been asked to do so by a god/dess?

As for blood, well someones else's see the above. but my own as an offering or even a curio? not a problem, the only time to date i have ever used it was annoiting my athame. the only reason i havent used it other than that is because ive never had to do anything else that required that kind of power/energy. but i have no aversion to doing so.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

No, I suppose I can't. I don't claim to know the workings of a soul, or even if it exists. I can only say what I see with my eyes, and what I see are animals that do not want to die, that will do their utmost to avoid being killed, dying for the pleasure or spiritual fulfillment of men.

Yet death and life and rebirth all go hand in hand as critical aspects of the rotation of the wheel of life.

But we don't need nourishment from meat anymore. We kill animals still because we enjoy it. Because we like how they taste. Not so we can survive. (Again, this depends on individual belief. You could see animals as equal in terms of spirit to plants for all I know, or as lesser beings to us. I just know that I feel better about taking the life of a being with no brain with which to feel pain or emotion and only those beings, than to take the life of a fellow animal (though I wouldn't take any life if I could avoid it. I'm not sure about the potential health risks of fruitarians)).

Sorry I have to disagree there. In many parts of western society people try to think we don't need it yet that is a falsehood. Many areas survive on a high animal fat intake to supplement their diets. Many third world nations also have a high animal diet to supplement their diets less they fall to many diseases. Far to many assumptions based upon limited knowledge and experience I think when it comes to surviving without meat. Nor the supplements that have to be taken to maintain a healthy body and structure. Many that are not available with cost for a lot of people, sort of ties into the garbage diets so many poor or needy people have due to available funds for food.

With regard to plants not feeling again how do you know? Many studies suggest plants can speak to one another and potentially even other species, can feel a base sensation of pain though we can not say if it is similar to how and animal might express pain. To say because it is chemical does nothing to change the fact our own emotions are chemical changes and charges in our own bodies electrical system. An electrical system that is present in most plants as well on a lessor level though things like Krillian Photography suggests the spirit or essence of a clipped leaf or such remains long after the cutting.

[Auseklis]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

I think the greatest sacrifice is giving/using your own blood. I know of a few pathologists who will take extra blood upon request for such use. Obviously they are not meant to but do it for the few who ask.

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With regard to plants not feeling again how do you know? Many studies suggest plants can speak to one another and potentially even other species, can feel a base sensation of pain though we can not say if it is similar to how and animal might express pain. To say because it is chemical does nothing to change the fact our own emotions are chemical changes and charges in our own bodies electrical system. An electrical system that is present in most plants as well on a lessor level though things like Krillian Photography suggests the spirit or essence of a clipped leaf or such remains long after the cutting.

Biological reaction and communication is different to feeling pain. A living 'thing' must have a central nervous system to feel pain. Plants do not have this.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

..Biological reaction and communication is different to feeling pain. A living 'thing' must have a central nervous system to feel pain. Plants do not have this.

I'd say only to the extent of how we limit what is the definition of life and Sentient status. Something that is constantly being changed as our understanding of the various kingdoms change. Figure it wasn't that long ago when certain races were not even consider human and capable of deep emotion.

[Quetzal]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Many third world nations also have a high animal diet to supplement their diets less they fall to many diseases. Far to many assumptions based upon limited knowledge and experience I think when it comes to surviving without meat. Nor the supplements that have to be taken to maintain a healthy body and structure. Many that are not available with cost for a lot of people, sort of ties into the garbage diets so many poor or needy people have due to available funds for food.

Sure, I accept what you said about third world countries. But you and I don't live in third world countries. In the west, we aren't about to starve to death of suffer horrible diseases for not eating meat. Should we in wealthier countries eat meat when we don't have to, just because someone else somewhere does?

As for supplements, I can only speak from experience. I've been vegan a few years now, and vegetarian a long time before that. I've never taken any supplements, or changes my diet that much outside of removing certain things from it. I've suffered no ill effects. I actually feel better than I ever have, having lost a lot of weight (I'm still slightly overweight, but only exercise will change that now, not anything in my diet), and having rid myself of the guilt I felt towards the end of my meat eating days (you can probably tell, I feel pretty strongly about it, and can guess how awful I felt while meat was still on my plate).
I know this is anecdotal, but the whole supplement thing just isn't always true.

For plants, I don't wanna step on anyone's beliefs over something I'm not personally sure about (I do feel slight guilt for taking plant life, but nowhere near the level of how I felt with meat, so it's bearable. I don't believe plants can feel though).

I think the greatest sacrifice is giving/using your own blood. I know of a few pathologists who will take extra blood upon request for such use. Obviously they are not meant to but do it for the few who ask.

I'd say sacrificing time is greater than sacrificing blood, personally. Time, that's pure life juice right there. Much more precious than self-replenishing bodily fluids. Unless you spill the whole lot, I suppose, which itself would be the greatest sacrifice of time. You're giving up all the time you had left then. Not that I'd recommend it or anything, but that's how I see it.

[Auseklis]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

I'd say only to the extent of how we limit what is the definition of life and Sentient status. Something that is constantly being changed as our understanding of the various kingdoms change. Figure it wasn't that long ago when certain races were not even consider human and capable of deep emotion.

There is a reason that living beings which can feel pain can also move (or run) from threats that cause pain. There is a reason plants do not. Nature is perfect and how everything 'just is' is also perfect for the species and their biological makeup.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Sure, I accept what you said about third world countries. But you and I don't live in third world countries. In the west, we aren't about to starve to death of suffer horrible diseases for not eating meat. Should we in wealthier countries eat meat when we don't have to, just because someone else somewhere does?

Your right I don't live in a third world county but supposedly a western or 1st world country. Yet I see families who supplement their diets heavily with hunting or other meats whether it be fish, fowl or such and know that is the majority of their daily meals. Places where the take home pay is so low they qualify some assistance but seldom is it enough so the food stuffs they do get are pretty non nutritional in most instances.

I also know that many I've spoken to seem to equate their reducing their intake of food by changing the type of food they eat as being that meat is bad for them. In many ways always reminds me of the person who goes to the fast food place orders, a large burger, extra fries, a few other things then tops it off with a diet coke. Yet eating in moderation coupled to exercise and such does everything your claiming and still based upon consumption of meat.

So in that regard I might accept a personal spiritual / religious basis but to try to hang it upon diet alone does not work considering that intake and activity result in all the same results that are claimed by those who don't eat meat.

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There is a reason that living beings which can feel pain can also move (or run) from threats that cause pain. There is a reason plants do not. Nature is perfect and how everything 'just is' is also perfect for the species and their biological makeup.

The flight or fight response is not what i'd call as proof or justification of saying something is feeling or self aware. Then there are also examples of plants moving away from sensations that would be seen as painful just as they may move towards nourishment or such. Examples of positive experience or environment causing noticeable responses in plant life as well. But mostly it seems to go back to the old argument of why animals should be viewed one way and the plant kingdom another, mostly because as human animals we can empathize or relate to animals but can not do so with the plant kingdom. SO we use our perceptions of stimulus to a response and overlay that upon how we think other species should respond. I suppose in many ways the way we consider the insect kingdom and whether they feel pain and such.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Wow you go offline for 12 hours and look what happens! One of the most interesting recent discussions and I've missed four pages of it! lol

Corvus, I appreciate you splitting this off, because I was actually thinking about this late last night wondering if I was game enough to split it off myself. Both of these things are topics that are very close to my heart, so to speak.

What are your opinions about blood sacrifice...

Blood sacrifice is an intricate part of my practice, though I call it an 'offering' rather than a 'sacrifice'. I'm not REALLY sacrificing anything when I bloodwork, but I am sticking my vein with a needle, drawing 3mls of blood into a syringe and leaving it in a little pot for Skuld. Or sticking my finger with a needle, milking out a few drops and feeding the runespirits. Or adding a drop to certain spells to cement my connection to them. Or blooding my tools. Or whatever. I use blood on a regular basis, but always with that specific purpose in mind of giving up a piece of myself in order to deepen my connection with my tools, my helper spirits or my goddess.

Some would argue that I could just as easily do this without blood. But blood is one of the most intimate parts of ourselves. It carries our identity, our life essence, the genetic markers that make us who we are. Yes, there is also DNA in saliva or skin cells or hair follicles, but those are shed naturally during the course of the day. And they don't carry the same intimacy and life essence that blood does. And it doesn't take the same measured self control to draw them from the body.

Incidentally, I never use menstrual blood for much the same reason. Menstrual blood has very specific symbolism to me... not only is it waste product of the body, but it is a wasted egg, fertility that has gone unused, nutrients and nourishing media that is past it's used by date and is no longer any good. It's... different to venous blood. The energy is different and it serves a much more specific purpose - one that I don't normally have need to harness.

... and animal sacrifice?

Well I'm an omnivore, I grew up in the country, my husband is a subsistence hunter, and our dream is to homestead (though we don't call it that in Australia) and raise and slaughter our own organic meat (and veggies and all the rest). On top of that I work with animal spirits and use animal parts in my practice. And I'm a vet nurse/tech, thus am involved in the mercy killing of animals on am almost weekly basis.

It's fairly obvious where I stand on this point.

The key is that it's done properly. The reality is that humans sacrifice the lives of millions of animals every single day. Any of you who ate meat for dinner last night has used the life of an animal for your own subsistence. Anyone who washed their hair with shampoo last night has used the life of an animal to keep yourself clean (unless you use a vegan brand). Anyone who wears leather, who eats meat, who uses glue, who uses non-vegan detergents, who wears makeup, who eats jelly, who uses any one of a trillion products that has animal parts in it is using the life of an animal.

To kill something with your own hands is to intrinsically link it's life to your own. I know, I've done it a hundred times and I am sworn to a goddess of death. You bring your pet to the vet to put it down because it's old and ill... I am the one who wields the needle, who steals it's life away, who eases it's body to the ground, who wraps it up for burial or cremation, who guides it's spirit from it's lifeless body when it's done.

We sacrifice the life of our pets to end their suffering. We sacrifice animals for food. We sacrifice animals for their skin. We sacrifice animals for the protection of our children (who's killed a poisonous spider, lately?), we sacrifice animals to heal ourselves (antibiotics, anyone?), we sacrifice animals for the sake of hygiene or just because they annoy us (who puts ant killer outside?) Every single one of these acts is a sacrifice, because we are giving up a life. Perhaps it was not ours to give up, but we are the ones who have taken that life and we are the ones who are then responsible for the remains and for the spirit of that creature.

Is animal sacrifice for magick that much different? I don't think so. Death and killing is a part of the natural cycle of things. We kill animals and organism ALL THE TIME. We kill plants. To me, no life is more or less sacred than any other. It is the manner in which it is killed and treated afterwards that is important. I happen to agree that all killing is murder... but I've learned to see killing for what it is, and to live with the consequences of taking lives regularly, and to make it an intensely respectful and spiritual act.

Would I kill or sacrifice a human? If they wanted to be euthanised to end their suffering, yes. If they are threatening my life or that of my family, yes. If my survival depends on it, yes. I would even eat them if I had to. For magick? No, because I wouldn't be utilising the remains, and that renders it not appropriate. Would I sacrifice a frog for magick? No, because I wouldn't be utilising the remains, and that renders it not appropriate. A chicken? Sure. Because I'd kill it humanely, treat it with respect, offer up it's life essence then cook and eat it's remains.

How is that different to picking up a chicken at the supermarket? To me... a LOT different. A supermarket chicken was killed in a slaughterhouse... has anyone seen footage of what happens there? Do you know how they kill your roast chickens? Do you know how those chickens lived? I can give a chicken a much better life and death than what they'll be given in the commercial livestock system.

Killing is not something that everyone can do, or even should do. But it is not wrong to do animal sacrifice anymore than it's wrong not to do it. If it's done humanely and respectfully then it is better than what most food species get. And if it can be done spiritually on top of that... well that can be a beautiful and intensely moving thing.

[Quetzal]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Your right I don't live in a third world county but supposedly a western or 1st world country. Yet I see families who supplement their diets heavily with hunting or other meats whether it be fish, fowl or such and know that is the majority of their daily meals. Places where the take home pay is so low they qualify some assistance but seldom is it enough so the food stuffs they do get are pretty non nutritional in most instances.

I also know that many I've spoken to seem to equate their reducing their intake of food by changing the type of food they eat as being that meat is bad for them. In many ways always reminds me of the person who goes to the fast food place orders, a large burger, extra fries, a few other things then tops it off with a diet coke. Yet eating in moderation coupled to exercise and such does everything your claiming and still based upon consumption of meat.

So in that regard I might accept a personal spiritual / religious basis but to try to hang it upon diet alone does not work considering that intake and activity result in all the same results that are claimed by those who don't eat meat.

I accept all of that too. It's why I had to put up with the guilt of eating meat for a while. I couldn't afford a comparatively expensive vegan diet at the time. But the moment I was able, I stopped eating meat. Most people on the internet can afford to not eat meat. They choose to carry on doing so because they love the taste, and only because they love the taste. And while I don't like it, I'd have less of a problem with it if they'd just stop carrying the "I need meat to live" banner around and just admit, they kill because they enjoy it.

And yeah, of course you could be perfectly healthy with meat in your diet. I'm not saying it's bad for you. As someone who eats a lot and doesn't exercise though, it was definitely good for me to give it up. But no, I have no issue with people's health or the lifestyle they lead. I just take issue with meat consumption on a moral basis, and used the anecdotal health example to back it up with something a little less subjective.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

I accept all of that too. It's why I had to put up with the guilt of eating meat for a while.

So because you felt guilty others should too?

COULD I afford a healthy vegetarian diet? No, actually I couldn't. Not with the vet bills my various animals have left me to pay off. Right now most of my meat consumption is the dark meat from roast chickens my neighbour buys since she only eats white meat. But that is utterly besides the point. I have no guilt about eating meat. I grew up on a vegetable farm and meat was the result of what my dad, uncle and grandad could shoot. Or it came from other local farmers and we picked the animal that was to be slaughtered for our meals.

Yes I DO like the taste of meat. I also like how it makes my body feel. And I'm not going to be made to feel guilty about that.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Controversy over Blood Sacrifice

Biological reaction and communication is different to feeling pain. A living 'thing' must have a central nervous system to feel pain. Plants do not have this.

Actually, studies have been done to show that plants will take measures to avoid repeated exposure to noxious stimuli.

They may not feel pain the same way that vertebrates do, but that doesn't mean they don't feel pain. Pain itself is medically defined as:

An unpleasant physical and emotional experience, associated with potential or actual tissue damage

That quote is taken from my veterinary dictionary. And my Pain Management textbook says almost exactly the same thing but uses the term 'sensory' instead of 'physical'.

Notice that definition includes 'emotional experience' and 'potential tissue damage'... which means that pain is NOT just a physical sensation that is dependent on a central nervous system. Pain can be emotional, and entities can feel pain before a stimulus is even applied if they become sensitised to it.

It was not that long ago that people thought animals didn't feel pain.

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But we don't need nourishment from meat anymore. We kill animals still because we enjoy it. Because we like how they taste. Not so we can survive. (Again, this depends on individual belief. You could see animals as equal in terms of spirit to plants for all I know, or as lesser beings to us.

I am one of the people who sees plant lives as just as valid as animal lives. Along with bacteria, yeast and other micro-organisms.

Therefore it doesn't make sense to me personally to elevate the life of one living thing over than of another based on species. To me, the elevation of one life over another is related to how much it means to me personally, and how much danger it presents to me or my loved ones. Species doesn't have much to do with it.