follow your gut or the rule book?

[Rowanwood]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

^ Right on. It's all about the path you are on and what your goal is.

Me? I'm a intuition sort of girl, but I'm also a soft polytheist at best, so I'm not concerned about offending anyone. But if you are a hard theist? Well, that changes everything.

[anubisa]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

I think you have to find a middle-ground between the two. You do have to find rituals and formulae that are in tune with your energy, your spirit, or whatever you wish to call it. But at the same time, certain things make sense regardless of your personal desires. Some rituals are done in a set of steps to make sure that they're maximally effective.

I agree. I think there is a middle between the two as well.

[Briar]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Many years back when I was first introduced to paganism through Wicca, a lot of books made it seem like every color, number, day, herb, stone, etc all had specific meanings, and that's just how it was. The thing is, as I started looking at how different cultures through history did things, while I did sometimes see different cultures having overlapping symbolism for the same thing, very often different cultures would associate different, and perhaps even conflicting, symbolism to the same thing. If, say, the number 4 really had some underlying universal meaning, you'd expect that to show up in all cultures, but that's not always the case. So for a lot of these general ideas, I don't think there's anything truly set in stone - we have to look at things through our own cultural and subconscious lens, and see what makes sense where.

Which isn't to say there's no value in 'going by the book.' For example, if you're looking to work with a particular deity, and they're associated with certain things, understanding what those things mean to that culture can really be helpful. It's not just a matter of what is associated with what, but also why.

I agree with this totally. If I was going o follow "the rules" I would have to ask, who's rules? Such as I was told that green meant money, well maybe, if you are from the U.S. and use greenbacks as your currency. Another culture says green means fertility. If you come from an agriculture ancestry then this makes sense. Some believe green is corruption such as 'green with envy'. Could be.

Many, MANY energies have no sight and some are colored blind, some see on a different light spectrum. We humans are pretty limited with what our eyes see--there are more colors than what we know, ask the peacock what colors his tail-eyes are. We cannot even see the colors that spirit can see and we want to force our limited view on colors onto them? Hawks can see urine trails from 200 ft in the air because they see in ultraviolet light.

Since I work with spirits that are not human I have to get rid of any of my human prejudices and work with how the energies connects to the universe. The colors, scents, textures...those are for us to get to the right frame of mind to work with the energies.

[Briar]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

I do find it interesting that it seems every component mentioned so far pertains to low or folk magics none of them pertain to ceremonial or high magics.......But more so I suppose because one had to actually study and be committed to their pathway at all times.

Respectfully;

This is a bit of a misunderstanding of how folk magic works. I find freedom to be the most important aspect of life. For me without freedom we are nothing more than cutouts of the same person over and over and over and over...

This does not, however, mean that a folk magician doesn't study or are not committed to their pathways at all times. In fact for me it is the exact opposite. My pathway does not materialize just during ritual or magic. Instead the way I raise my food, work with the weather, deal with the actual wolves at the door, heal myself...all these actions are part of my path. I perform magic several times a day when needed and it comes from what is happening right at that moment. For me, energy is different each year. 2008 was a flood year. Everything I did revolved around the overwhelming presence of water. My path would not have survived if it was not flexible. In 2012 there was a drought. The fields dried where they stood. Fire ripped through the north woods. Again, if I could not change, the way my connection to the sacred would not have survived. Because I am willing to learn and grow (study) I can remain committed to my path even as the world and life changed around me.

So saying that a ceremonialist is always studying but a folk witch is not means that you don't quite know what a folk witch does in life. They are so committed to their path that it colors everything they do, not just during ceremony.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Respectfully;

This is a bit of a misunderstanding of how folk magic works. I find freedom to be the most important aspect of life. For me without freedom we are nothing more than cutouts of the same person over and over and over and over...

This does not, however, mean that a folk magician doesn't study or are not committed to their pathways at all times. In fact for me it is the exact opposite. My pathway does not materialize just during ritual or magic. Instead the way I raise my food, work with the weather, deal with the actual wolves at the door, heal myself...all these actions are part of my path. I perform magic several times a day when needed and it comes from what is happening right at that moment. For me, energy is different each year. 2008 was a flood year. Everything I did revolved around the overwhelming presence of water. My path would not have survived if it was not flexible. In 2012 there was a drought. The fields dried where they stood. Fire ripped through the north woods. Again, if I could not change, the way my connection to the sacred would not have survived. Because I am willing to learn and grow (study) I can remain committed to my path even as the world and life changed around me.

So saying that a ceremonialist is always studying but a folk witch is not means that you don't quite know what a folk witch does in life. They are so committed to their path that it colors everything they do, not just during ceremony.

Actually I have quite an understanding of folk practices and the unstructured nature of it. And it still is not as structured nor require the detailed knowledge that ceremonial or high magics requires to be fully effective. Especially given that folk magics tend not to call upon goetia type entities nor on other magical beings energies to be performed for the magician. I never said not committed to it I said if does not require the pursuit of knowledge and structure that is demanded in high or ceremonial practices.

But like was used as an analogy earlier any one can be a cook but it doesn't make them a chief. Most folk practitioners are cooks while most ceremonial / high magics practitioners are chiefs and do not substitute ingredients at a whim. Like typical cooks they take a recipe from one place and modify it to suit their own taste for each instance, where the chief creates the same meal every time and that is why they are sough out. So while they study and are devote to their cooking they are not as devote or as highly trained as the chief.

[Briar]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Actually I have quite an understanding of folk practices and the unstructured nature of it. And it still is not as structured nor require the detailed knowledge that ceremonial or high magics requires to be fully effective. Especially given that folk magics tend not to call upon goetia type entities nor on other magical beings energies to be performed for the magician. I never said not committed to it I said if does not require the pursuit of knowledge and structure that is demanded in high or ceremonial practices.

But like was used as an analogy earlier any one can be a cook but it doesn't make them a chief. Most folk practitioners are cooks while most ceremonial / high magics practitioners are chiefs and do not substitute ingredients at a whim. Like typical cooks they take a recipe from one place and modify it to suit their own taste for each instance, where the chief creates the same meal every time and that is why they are sough out. So while they study and are devote to their cooking they are not as devote or as highly trained as the chief.

It is not as structured, this is true. As for not s detailed, it does depend on what energies we work with. With some it is often very detailed. It is what works, nothing more, nothing less, no theatrics. You did state that ceremonial magicians are committed as if this was a way to separate them from folk witches. Perhaps I misread the sentence; "But more so I suppose because one had to actually study and be committed to their pathway at all times." Perhaps you could explain what you meant by 'study' and 'committed' so I could understand it better.

Now, the second paragraph; I would think the person who created this idea does not know about being a chef or else they might change their example. A chef goes through training that is based on what traditional cooks teach them. Italian chefs learn about the food that comes from the countryside or seaside of the country of Italy. French chefs are taught about the foods that come from the French countryside. The food that chefs learn about come from the fresh foods that have been prepared for centuries by the people who live with them. The chefs learn from what the country folks have been doing for a very long time. Modern chefs bring modern cooking practices to old folk traditional cooking-like blow torches and computer paintings in edible decoration (even lasers now) . My brother is a chef and the new term that many are using is ethno-chef. Long before dishes make it to a culinary institute it becomes tried and true in the kitchens of many a good cook.

I am not cutting down ceremonial magicians. They have their own way that to me seems to involve a good deal of theatrics. My nephew is an actor and he is a wise and wonderful person. Not everyone is cut out to set a stage though. Some of us invite the energies to the table, others entertain them. Neither way is more "committed" than the other.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

It is not as structured, this is true. As for not s detailed, it does depend on what energies we work with. With some it is often very detailed. It is what works, nothing more, nothing less, no theatrics. You did state that ceremonial magicians are committed as if this was a way to separate them from folk witches. Perhaps I misread the sentence; "But more so I suppose because one had to actually study and be committed to their pathway at all times." Perhaps you could explain what you meant by 'study' and 'committed' so I could understand it better.

Let me put it this way and try to clean up my position's clarity.

As a folk based witch the energies you call upon are typically going to be sympathetic in focus and usage. Will involve the use of sympathetic focused ingredients such as candles, charms, colors, possessions, etc or allies such as plants, minerals, etc. If any divine energy is called upon it's more so via prayer than actual incantation, evocation or invocation. A typically there will be no dimensional boundaries crossed nor bridges created that allow for any spillage or need for containment.

Yet the ceremonial / high magics practitioner will seldom if ever use sympathetic magics or components of any sort. The closest ally will usually be a secondary magician / practitioner who will work with them. IN almost every instance it will involve incantations, invocations or evocations and creation of magical bridges or gateways. It will usually involve an exchange between an entity not of terresterial origin. Many times what is worked with may be a lower creature or entity but words, sounds, formats, structure are all critical components and are adhered to if for no other reason safety.

IN many instances the folk practice is also modification of an everyday event or ritual. where the Ceremonial / high magical practice is not everyday but is usually highly planned out and detailed because of the extra knowledge that it entails for usage. It's like sigils have become a common phrase today yet to the ceremonial / high magics practitioner they are so much more than what most would have you believe. Complex systems that are aligned to a lot of external patterns and such that the folk practitioner will never have to worry about and in all probability never would have.

Many of the ceremonial / high practitioners I have known speak in Latin or other languages for their practices so are required to actually learn another language for their craft. Many manuel's and older grimores were written in another language but even that pales when you figure knowledge is hidden and spread across many volumes so you have to read between many lines many times. Figure many of them also become skilled in a number of other areas that typically are not found in folk practices such as celestial rotation and heavenly movement of various bodies which can affect / effect dimensional bridges and gateways.

Now I admit that in recent years you see many so called ceremonial or high magics practitioners trying to get away from the structure and formality of things. Heck the net is full of them who come forth and claim they don't need this or that to do something. The same can be said of many folk practitioners as well I suppose in that the net is full of sudden experts who talk the talk and assume you will accept they walk the walk.

Now, the second paragraph; I would think the person who created this idea does not know about being a chef or else they might change their example. A chef goes through training that is based on what traditional cooks teach them. Italian chefs learn about the food that comes from the countryside or seaside of the country of Italy. French chefs are taught about the foods that come from the French countryside. The food that chefs learn about come from the fresh foods that have been prepared for centuries by the people who live with them. The chefs learn from what the country folks have been doing for a very long time. Modern chefs bring modern cooking practices to old folk traditional cooking-like blow torches and computer paintings in edible decoration (even lasers now) . My brother is a chef and the new term that many are using is ethno-chef. Long before dishes make it to a culinary institute it becomes tried and true in the kitchens of many a good cook.

Nah actually I think they probably do. A cook can screw up and no one really cares a Chief screws up and their job and reputation is ruined. A cook can try to create a new menu item and play around all they want to a degree yet the Chief is expected to have the knowledge to do so yet performs by a given standard and is expected to have a base skill set that was developed by going from station to station within the kitchen. His / Her advancement derived from an ability to show that they can perform the task each time yet still retain that knowledge as they advance as they will I assume become responsible for what every person beneath them does.

The folk practitioner can be anything they claim to be and hold any skill level they claim to hold. There is no structure in place to determine there skill or knowledge sets. There is nothing in place to even ensure the mixture of one creation is the same as another. Yeah, I agree many will have a high knowledge of local herbs, plants, perhaps animals but not the higher degree of knowledge the ceremonial practitioner has to have.

Yeah many times it is almost theatrical in nature. Yet many times the theatrical is also used to ensure each step is performed when, where and how it has to be done. Then like some musical everyone on set moves to the same theme and rate to ensure the show goes off safely and properly.

Now I admit some Granny or Folk practitioners go to great limits to gain their knowledge and test / modify it. Yet if one uses humanity as an example the odds are more likely its I want it now and I want it my way. That and they want it in short sound bytes which do not require a long term commitment and the attention to detail that is required. That's one of the reason in my opinion there are so many cut and paste color tables, candle tables, equation tables, etc out there today with no real knowledge behind them or the reason for such equations.

[Briar]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Let me put it this way and try to clean up my position's clarity.

As a folk based witch the energies you call upon are typically going to be sympathetic in focus and usage. Will involve the use of sympathetic focused ingredients such as candles, charms, colors, possessions, etc or allies such as plants, minerals, etc. If any divine energy is called upon it's more so via prayer than actual incantation, evocation or invocation. A typically there will be no dimensional boundaries crossed nor bridges created that allow for any spillage or need for containment.

Then what I practice must not be folk magic. I've never lit a candle for any magical purpose. I wouldn't waste my time or money on charms, magical possessions and, I as I've already stated, I certainly don't worry about colors. In fact I do believe it was the opposite, that ceremonial magicians worry about getting the correct color because they all vibrate their own way or some such thing. Maybe I misunderstood that part.

As I don't believe in dimensional boundaries I guess I don't need to worry about containing anything. Hmmm, I wonder what kind of magic I practice.

Yet the ceremonial / high magics practitioner will seldom if ever use sympathetic magics or components of any sort. The closest ally will usually be a secondary magician / practitioner who will work with them. IN almost every instance it will involve incantations, invocations or evocations and creation of magical bridges or gateways. It will usually involve an exchange between an entity not of terresterial origin. Many times what is worked with may be a lower creature or entity but words, sounds, formats, structure are all critical components and are adhered to if for no other reason safety. .

Interesting. It wouldn't work for me as this would take a great deal of faith and I wasn't blessed with an over abundance of that.

IN many instances the folk practice is also modification of an everyday event or ritual. where the Ceremonial / high magical practice is not everyday but is usually highly planned out and detailed because of the extra knowledge that it entails for usage. It's like sigils have become a common phrase today yet to the ceremonial / high magics practitioner they are so much more than what most would have you believe. Complex systems that are aligned to a lot of external patterns and such that the folk practitioner will never have to worry about and in all probability never would have.

Yeah, I don't work with sigils, don't know much about them at all. They are just human scratch marks to me. For me any energies that need human scratch marks aren't really all that important, but then I work with energies that don't need them. Again, way too much theatrics for me to believe in.

From the way the last sentence is written it reminds me of my old neighbor's mason's club. In his last years of life he couldn't drive so drove him to all his meetings and sat in the basement because I was not allowed to witness the ceremony, but I could hear everything <yawn>. A bunch of old men made everything much more complicated than it needed to be so that they could exclude others by saying others wouldn't understand. Then they sat around, drank beer, and gossiped. They accomplished nothing more with all their theatrics than I do by simply communicating with the energies around me...but they got to say how we normal people would never understand because they were so much higher than we were. I guess this arrogant exclusion is what turned me off of "higher magic". It does nothing more than simple magic does but it lets the person practicing it feel superior. For some that is a very important feeling and they should be allowed to have it or they go into depression.

Many of the ceremonial / high practitioners I have known speak in Latin or other languages for their practices so are required to actually learn another language for their craft. Many manuel's and older grimores were written in another language but even that pales when you figure knowledge is hidden and spread across many volumes so you have to read between many lines many times. Figure many of them also become skilled in a number of other areas that typically are not found in folk practices such as celestial rotation and heavenly movement of various bodies which can affect / effect dimensional bridges and gateways.

I speak Latin, but that's because I'm a scientist. We use a dead language because living languages are always changing. That is how you know it is a living language. By sticking with a dead language every meaning is the same and can be tried by anyone who wishes. Such as I create a theory and anyone can test it over and over to make certain it hold true. Using Latin is a way of inclusion for science.

Okay, yeah, I have seen many a person create meanings from text. It's fun to watch, I'll give you that. Makes the conspiracy nuts go crazy. Which can be fun to watch too.

Now I admit that in recent years you see many so called ceremonial or high magics practitioners trying to get away from the structure and formality of things. Heck the net is full of them who come forth and claim they don't need this or that to do something. The same can be said of many folk practitioners as well I suppose in that the net is full of sudden experts who talk the talk and assume you will accept they walk the walk.

Good for them. They are probably just going with what works for them. And the net is full of people who claim they know the secrets that no one else does. It makes them feel superior, I guess. That's a nice feeling to have and I'm sure it makes them happy. For magic, I simply communicate with the energies as they see fit, so what other people do is up to them. Unless of course the energy I am working with is of human origins, then I do have to study that energy first.

Nah actually I think they probably do. A cook can screw up and no one really cares a Chief screws up and their job and reputation is ruined. A cook can try to create a new menu item and play around all they want to a degree yet the Chief is expected to have the knowledge to do so yet performs by a given standard and is expected to have a base skill set that was developed by going from station to station within the kitchen. His / Her advancement derived from an ability to show that they can perform the task each time yet still retain that knowledge as they advance as they will I assume become responsible for what every person beneath them does.

The person eating the cooks food cares, just as much as the people eating the chef's food. The chef just has a higher profit margin, but the cook may have other things on the line (fastest way to man's heart is through his stomach). If money is the measurement of power than yes, the chef makes more money. The title is the important thing, not the outcome. I've always been a bottom line kind of person; what's the outcome? Do they accomplish the same thing? Then why is one better than the other?

And you've obviously never made a Thanksgiving dinner for a large farm family if you think a chef knows more than a cook about different stations in the kitchen. We feed over a hundred people for our holiday meals and the food is prepared not in one simple, uncluttered area, but in several kitchens in several houses, with children swirling around your feet wanting to help. This is where the K.I.S.S. system really becomes important. Get it done right and ignore the drama queen girl or boy friend that one of the teenagers brought. They're the entertainment, not the people who put the meal on the table.

The folk practitioner can be anything they claim to be and hold any skill level they claim to hold. There is no structure in place to determine there skill or knowledge sets. There is nothing in place to even ensure the mixture of one creation is the same as another. Yeah, I agree many will have a high knowledge of local herbs, plants, perhaps animals but not the higher degree of knowledge the ceremonial practitioner has to have.

Um, yeah there is a structure in place...the energies themselves. I don't use human created ceremonies to work with the energies. Candles, chanting, symbols, those are all for the people not for the energies themselves. I simply get to know the energies and work with what they need. It's like talking but in a different way. I don't need all the gobbly gook to "talk" and the outcome has always been, it works. K.I.S.S. system in practice.

I train horses as a side job. I get lots of rich people who come in with $1000 bridles and tens of thousands of dollars saddles. I know one woman who paid over two hundred thousand dollars for her cart rig. All of this is to impress the humans. The horse could give a rip about what is used to control them, a $200 rig works just as well. But to many horse people (there is a difference between horse lovers and horse people), their horses and equipment are their status symbol. As a trainer I love these kind of people because they usually buy something by pedigree or for looks and then need me to train the animal because it has so many quirks (inbreeding can make nasty animals--bringing new blood into a line makes it healthier). I make good money, they look good, and I can roll my eyes when everyone is in awe of the horse and rig. I see them when they are stripped bare, scared to death, and willing to kill to survive. All the flash is for those who refuse to see them for what they are.

When I work with energies I see the same thing. The energies themselves could care less about all the things we humans do to get to the right frame of mind. All of the lighting of candles, using colors, writing of symbols, are for the human to get where they need to be.

Yeah many times it is almost theatrical in nature. Yet many times the theatrical is also used to ensure each step is performed when, where and how it has to be done. Then like some musical everyone on set moves to the same theme and rate to ensure the show goes off safely and properly.

Yes, when you're putting on someone else's play you need to know your lines. I guess I never inspired to be an actress, I was a science nerd all my life.

Now I admit some Granny or Folk practitioners go to great limits to gain their knowledge and test / modify it. Yet if one uses humanity as an example the odds are more likely its I want it now and I want it my way. That and they want it in short sound bytes which do not require a long term commitment and the attention to detail that is required. That's one of the reason in my opinion there are so many cut and paste color tables, candle tables, equation tables, etc out there today with no real knowledge behind them or the reason for such equations.

Again, you come back to the human side. Is ceremonial magic all about humans? I work with non-human energy. If I did what you said, it would be like a child throwing a tantrum in a store and unless the parents were indulgent (mine were--I come from rednecks, they'd haul off and smack you in the middle of the store if you did that) the child wouldn't get their way. A person who did that would quickly stop believing in magic and go on their way.

I can't work with energies by demanding they do what I want. It's silly to even think that. Again, what is the outcome? It does take a long time to get to know another being, especially one so different than yourself. I just don't do it with all the "look at me, look at me" stuff that others do. I would be too embarrassed to do that. I will observe, study and communicate with the energies without all the human created stuff to get in the way.

As I have said, and I think many folk witches have said, we don't use cut and paste color tables, candle tables, equation tables. In fact if I remember correctly most say it isn't important. It was you that said everything needs to be just so. So why are you colors correct and others "cut and paste"?

Again we come back to the old men at the mason's club with all their rituals that were made not to contact any energies but to exclude other people. With all your talk about humans I kind of wonder about that as well. Maybe it's just they way you said it and it's not the case at all. I always gave ceremonial magicians the benefit of the doubt and just thought that they were the flamboyant children who loved to be the center of attention that grew up to enjoy all the theatrics as an adult. We are all who we are and we need each other. But maybe it's that they were the mean girls and boys that created the clubs that only the important people could join and all others were excluded. I'll have to study this a bit more. There is a group of ceremonial magicians in Lacrosse that I'll have to go see to see which one of those they are.

[Rowanwood]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Wow. I never people could get so excited about one style vs. another.

I always thought of folk magic being a intuitive practice based on experience with the energies (or term of your choice) usually after learning from your own experiences vs. ceremonial being learned activities based on other people's experiences in working with the energies (or etc.).

I don't see why it has to be a pissing match about who puts forth more effort and who's better.

I see a lot of derogatory commenting on both sides. I really don't get it. I do what works for me, and if you think that's less civilized than your method, that's totally your issue, not mine.

[Briar]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Wow. I never people could get so excited about one style vs. another.

I always thought of folk magic being a intuitive practice based on experience with the energies (or term of your choice) usually after learning from your own experiences vs. ceremonial being learned activities based on other people's experiences in working with the energies (or etc.).

I don't see why it has to be a pissing match about who puts forth more effort and who's better.

I see a lot of derogatory commenting on both sides. I really don't get it. I do what works for me, and if you think that's less civilized than your method, that's totally your issue, not mine.

Oh heck, Rowanwood, people can get excited about just about anything. It's who we are. I've seen people get excited about which cow produces the best milk. Of course I didn't think anyone was too excited here, I just think we're not explain ourselves or understanding each other very well. I'm sorry that it got you upset or saw derogatory comments. I'm glad you do what works for you. I think that's what most people do because if it didn't work, why do it?

[Rowanwood]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Sorry I wasn't clear either. I'm certainly not upset, it just looked like the discussion was getting heated and to me it seems to be about semantics. But I guess since I do very limited amounts of ritual/energy work and whatnot these days, it just seems like just strut.

As long as the outcome is what you want, who cares?



But I guess, since that's my opinion, that's probably why it feels like that to me.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Oh heck, Rowanwood, people can get excited about just about anything. It's who we are. I've seen people get excited about which cow produces the best milk. Of course I didn't think anyone was too excited here, I just think we're not explain ourselves or understanding each other very well. I'm sorry that it got you upset or saw derogatory comments. I'm glad you do what works for you. I think that's what most people do because if it didn't work, why do it?

I've been moving around reading some of your other replies trying to get a feel for you to help me understand or try to anyway. As I've read here and there I have started to notice that I think your doing what i'd call "Not Magic" but using energy and ones allies. It's harder to explain but something I find to be very Shamanic like in usage and found in many Hedge or Green witch practices or even many first nation / aboriginal practices. I used to belong to a forum where they were coining the term Hunter Witch which was more masculine than the typical Green or Hedge witch category. Not masculine in that it was more men practitioners, though many were man who practiced it, but less about sympathetic usages but more usages of energies and allies in making things happen and how things were done.

Folk and Granny magics as an identifier didn't fit any more than Ceremonial / High magics fit to describe it. The best I could ever put into words was its the feeling and sensation or knowledge you have when the energy speaks to you and you just pull here, push there and call upon 'Life" to make it happen or open things up. For me it was always walking to a place and you smelled things, felt things like something upon your skin that wasn't there but the prickles upon your skin guided you to what or where you needed to be or do.

Sorry difficult to put into words that people can relate to for its in constant motion and seldom is it ever the same exact way twice. Close enough to recognize that certain conditions are being set up but the currents or energies you'll have at your disposal are different due to time of day, time of year even what creature's are present at the moment in time.

I get the feeling that is what your calling magic and it doesn't match sympathetic or ceremonial in anyway.

Perhaps I am wrong but that is what is starting to settle in from reading your other replies elsewhere. Will have to read some more and see what happens before I come back and try to clarify on the line of though I was following with high / ceremonial magics versus Folk or Granny magics.

Rowanwood, I do not see where it was a pissing match or even derogatory on either side. Simply a deep discussion where we're using analogies and such to try and flesh out what were saying and how we see things. The difficult part is that were restricted to using unemotional words with no body language to aide in enlightening them so we have to try to paint a picture with those words.

I would add though that trying to understand the why and how things work or are classified for others doesn't make their practice any less factual or important or another's more factual or important. At best i'd think it seeks to find a common ground upon which both can be viewed. Yet in the end if it works for you then it seems illogical not to work it that way.

[Rowanwood]

Re: follow your gut or the rule book?

Rowanwood, I do not see where it was a pissing match or even derogatory on either side. Simply a deep discussion where we're using analogies and such to try and flesh out what were saying and how we see things. The difficult part is that were restricted to using unemotional words with no body language to aide in enlightening them so we have to try to paint a picture with those words.

I would add though that trying to understand the why and how things work or are classified for others doesn't make their practice any less factual or important or another's more factual or important. At best i'd think it seeks to find a common ground upon which both can be viewed. Yet in the end if it works for you then it seems illogical not to work it that way.

This is true -- I usually judge tone by the level of colorful metaphors used, though that's probably my own particular crazy. Carry on.