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Paganism in 2063

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    #16
    Re: Paganism in 2063

    Bring on those Christian pick my religious beliefs apart I am prepared to offer the same curtosy. I dont see christianity losing steam in my. lifetime.

    I cant say more atheist is better not all are live and let live. They could declare there own war against all people who believe spiritualy. If we were to become organize and have set docturine we would bicker with in ourselfs. Panganism covers a big section it would have to respect. so many beliefs. And who do we declare as pagan leaders?

    I see some division in some pagans those who were taught the craft by family tradition compared to those who have studied from others. Those who are coven taught compared to solo practioners.

    So yeah I can see how its like gathering cats.

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      #17
      Re: Paganism in 2063

      Rowan, I was Atheist, I'm now Pagan.^
      I highly doubt that Atheism is going to be a massive majority in 2060-whatever, and that religions will have whisped away. While being taught in schools it prompts students to look elsewhere ~towards things like paganism, A rebellious feeling if you like and Atheism is for a more specific mindset than you'd think so it doesn't suit all people, plus religions don't just stop.
      Christianity formed a Monopoly from ~1200's+, that monopoly is dying down and on par with religious freedom other religions are popping up left right and center, if anything I see an age where (even if just for historical reference) Religious Education takes a higher and wider stance in schools than currently, because people need and want to learn.
      Work hard Play hard.
      What is history?

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        #18
        Re: Paganism in 2063

        Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
        To be honest, I think this article is delusional. I have spent too much time trying to organize pagans to think that pagans will ever be more than they currently are. It's like herding cats, getting pagans together to do anything.
        I'm perplexed by this idea that it's delusional. I see signs of all of that everywhere. It seems the logical course of events.

        Personally, I want more. I want towering, magnificent temples to rival any sanctuary built by the followers of Abrahamic religions. I want Ziggurats rebuilt in Iraq, the Parthenon restored, the cathedral of Notre Dame rededicated to Celtic Deities, the temple of Artemis at Ephesus to build with hymns to the Goddess, and the great temple complexes in Egypt to be visited by countless worshipers. I want the scent of burnt offerings to travel on the air for miles on Samhain. If people insist on war then I want entire armies to offer prayers to the Aesir in hopes that when they die the Valkyries will carry them to Valhalla. I want the book of the law to be looked upon as a text with the esteemed position of the Quran, Bible,Torah, Vedas, and Sutras the world over. Indeed, I want paganism and countless indigenous traditions to flourish, fuse, and thrive. I could die happier than I have ever been before in my whole life if that came to pass in my life time.

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          #19
          Re: Paganism in 2063

          Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
          I'm perplexed by this idea that it's delusional. I see signs of all of that everywhere. It seems the logical course of events.

          Personally, I want more. I want towering, magnificent temples to rival any sanctuary built by the followers of Abrahamic religions. I want Ziggurats rebuilt in Iraq, the Parthenon restored, the cathedral of Notre Dame rededicated to Celtic Deities, the temple of Artemis at Ephesus to build with hymns to the Goddess, and the great temple complexes in Egypt to be visited by countless worshipers. I want the scent of burnt offerings to travel on the air for miles on Samhain. If people insist on war then I want entire armies to offer prayers to the Aesir in hopes that when they die the Valkyries will carry them to Valhalla. I want the book of the law to be looked upon as a text with the esteemed position of the Quran, Bible,Torah, Vedas, and Sutras the world over. Indeed, I want paganism and countless indigenous traditions to flourish, fuse, and thrive. I could die happier than I have ever been before in my whole life if that came to pass in my life time.
          It's a lovely dream, but temples take money. I couldn't get a handful of pagans to 1) pay for a campsite 2) even agree on what pagan means.

          I'm not really holding out hope for glorious temples of stone...especially since a lot of pagans, me included, think the earth is already a temple and we are all clergy. I have no need or desire for some organized place.

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            #20
            Re: Paganism in 2063

            Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
            Personally, I want more. I want towering, magnificent temples to rival any sanctuary built by the followers of Abrahamic religions. I want Ziggurats rebuilt in Iraq, the Parthenon restored, the cathedral of Notre Dame rededicated to Celtic Deities, the temple of Artemis at Ephesus to build with hymns to the Goddess, and the great temple complexes in Egypt to be visited by countless worshipers. I want the scent of burnt offerings to travel on the air for miles on Samhain. If people insist on war then I want entire armies to offer prayers to the Aesir in hopes that when they die the Valkyries will carry them to Valhalla. I want the book of the law to be looked upon as a text with the esteemed position of the Quran, Bible,Torah, Vedas, and Sutras the world over. Indeed, I want paganism and countless indigenous traditions to flourish, fuse, and thrive. I could die happier than I have ever been before in my whole life if that came to pass in my life time.
            Why not use all that vast fortune for something beneficial, like feeding the poor? Are the gods REALLY that hungry that people need to starve or die of curable diseases because all the money gets flushed down stone temple toilets?

            How many Vaticans does a troubled world really need?

            How many popes are really needed to meddle with lives they know nothing about, and can not possibly relate to, what with them living in Holy Palaces with Holy Servants at their eternal Holy beck & call?

            If that will make you die happy, convert to Catholicism & get it over with.
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Paganism in 2063

              Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
              Why not use all that vast fortune for something beneficial, like feeding the poor? Are the gods REALLY that hungry that people need to starve or die of curable diseases because all the money gets flushed down stone temple toilets?

              How many Vaticans does a troubled world really need?

              How many popes are really needed to meddle with lives they know nothing about, and can not possibly relate to, what with them living in Holy Palaces with Holy Servants at their eternal Holy beck & call?

              If that will make you die happy, convert to Catholicism & get it over with.
              Excuse me but that was entirely uncalled for. Secondly, many of our ancestors built pretty large temple complexes without having popes or any such thing. They had clergy but often lacked popes. Sure, certain priests were highly influential no doubt, but that did not make them pope. Have you also considered some of us would like a place of worship where we can perform our rites without having to worry about disturbing the neighbors, or hell I don't know, gather when our holy days come up. Some rites are meant for large groups and become exceedingly difficult to perform on ones own even if it doesn't require a parade or massive festival. Not every person in the world is content with being a solitary. You wouldn't even have to build all new temples in some cases, just restore old ones. Notre Dame would simply need to be rededicated.The temple built there now is already splendid enough, though my Celtic ancestors would have preferred the open air. Hell one could even construct a garden to grow food for the poor with a ritual space within if that's what their tradition is inclined to. Also, this scenario assumes that by then, the traditions are much more widely spread and some of those things aren't even about temples. Those remarks about Samhain and praying to the Aesir about a desire to see the traditions expand in numbers. Not because it they were forced at the edge of a sword, but because their piety is sincere. The statement about the Book of The Law is about a desire to see it as RESPECTED as those texts, not necessarily the formation of a "church". I want it to be treated with that reverence on a wider scale. I also resent this presumption that I want this sprawling clerical bureaucracy. I think some people however, are suited to formalized organized reverence whilst others are not. Some people need guides. Also, we don't live the middle ages anymore. The Church has no inquisition and to be honest, there are many worse people to worry about. Such as I don't know, televangelist types. The average priest isn't Bill Gates either. They don't have these innumerable servants you imagine. Most people who work in those churches that assist with the rites and rituals such as the choirs, altar boys, and so forth are VOLUNTEERS. I highly doubt that the traditions are lacking in people who are so pious that they wouldn't volunteer their time to help maintain the place or assist with whatever needs done. I'm honestly surprised you haven't gone after Buddhists, Hindus, and Surprisingly, Taoists with their elaborate temple complexes. Do you despise Shintoists for having temples too? What about the indigenous peoples of Central and South America who some times still gather at old temples in places like Chichen Itza to perform rituals sacred to them?

              I also resent you telling me what religion I should belong to.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Paganism in 2063

                Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
                Excuse me but that was entirely uncalled for.
                Nope. The idea of spending massive money on useless items calls for a response.

                You may not like it, but you did call for it.

                So there.



                As far as your resentment about my suggestion regarding a religion, take you thumb out of your mouth for a minute. I was merely suggesting that what you seem to want already exists, and told you where to find it. That is all.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #23
                  Re: Paganism in 2063

                  No, you brazenly insulted me without need. If I had found what spoke to my soul in Catholicism I would be Catholic, but there are countless doctrinal differences and the very nature of the philosophy does not speak to me anywhere near as deeply. If it made the same sort of sense to me then I would be one but it does not. I don't despise Catholicism, but it does not describe the baroque architecture of the universe itself well enough for me. If it gave me the answers I needed,the guidance I needed, I would be one, but that was not the case. Hence I shall keep the worship of the Old Deities. For it is them, not Jesus or Yahweh who have guided me. It is them who have brought me a greater measure of peace. They who have comforted me and lifted me up in the depths of my despair. They are the ones who continue to guide my path, so no, I will not convert to Catholicism because you don't like the idea of people having a common place to gather to revere them together if they so desire. It seems hypocritical to me to criticize the concept when many ancient pagans did build temples.

                  Have you ever considered trying to abolish the system that makes people to suffer unduly? There are more factors that mess things up for people. Temples and churches being built are the least of them.

                  All I know is that I am so sick of being alone, that I am tired of trying to find a space to make my offerings or perform the proper rites without disturbing anyone, I am sick of people resorting to "lol faken00b" type comments to disparage me, and I am sick of the very places built long ago to honor them languishing in decay.

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                    #24
                    Re: Paganism in 2063

                    OK, I now brazenly uninsult you, and apologize (in the most utterly sincere way I am capable) for daring to voice my ire at what seems to me, in my massive ignorance, to be a stupid waste of resources that could be better put to use dealing with real human problems, that cause real human suffering, rather than aggrandizing supernatural beings, and those who are capable of achieving no other status in the world except by clinging to their skirts.

                    Besides, I think runes are cool. If I wanted to look at new stuff, I'd just go to New York.
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Paganism in 2063

                      Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
                      No, you brazenly insulted me without need.
                      i agree with you that it was insulting. i am insulted when people (who often know nothing about me) try to tell me what i should and should not believe. we are all here because we have a certain belief system, or are trying hard to find it. it is rude to get in the way of someone's spiritual path.

                      i can say that i am also sick of being alone, not having a teacher of any kind, and not having anywhere at all to go and worship my Deities anywhere near me. it is so sad to me that there is so much stigma that still surrounds our practices....
                      sure, i would love to see great temples as they were in the old times, but i feel in my lifetime that it will not happen.
                      i think there needs to be more awareness at least about Paganisms of all kind though. how do we get there? how do we make it happen? i have no idea.
                      i just want to not be afraid to wear my pentagram to certain parts of town, or have people be afraid of me because of all the stigma.
                      all in all, i think things need to change.....but our beliefs in our Gods must never change.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Paganism in 2063

                        i think there needs to be more awareness at least about Paganisms of all kind though. how do we get there? how do we make it happen? i have no idea.
                        i just want to not be afraid to wear my pentagram to certain parts of town, or have people be afraid of me because of all the stigma.
                        all in all, i think things need to change.....but our beliefs in our Gods must never change.
                        Lack of action and openness is most of the reason there is no awareness. I live in The South. I've lived in The South for 10 of the past 12 years, and before that I lived in the Midwest. I live in good Bible believing country. I have never let what people think of me guide what I do in terms of my religious expression. And I have never, in over 20 years of being openly Pagan, been harassed or discriminated against for my beliefs because I don't give anyone the opportunity to do so. I've gotten more shit from Pagans for my time in the military, and even from a certain Christian group for being a woman in the military, that I have ever gotten for being Pagan. There are undoubtedly people that are uncomfortable with the fact, but that doesn't change the way they treat myself of my family...because I don't leave them with the ammunition to victimize us.

                        Going out, being a regular person, and being Pagan is what changes people's POV. Its not a matter of having visible temples. Its a matter of volunteering your time at a soup kitchen, and when someone asks why, saying its a religious calling to Brigid or Ascelpus, etc. That your religion and your gods call upon you to treat your fellow man with kindness. Its a matter of organizing a beach or park clean up or planting trees, and when someone asks why, telling them that its because you worship the Sea and the Land. Its a matter of LIVING as a good, decent, compassionate human being committed to justice, and then crediting your religious beliefs and practices for being your inspiration and catalyst for action.

                        Temples on the scale of the ancients...or the Vatican or Rick Warren and any number of new Christianities, is a wasteful folly, that I would hope we can someday grow beyond. IMO, its the human equivalent of territorial marking.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

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                          #27
                          Re: Paganism in 2063

                          Originally posted by Claude View Post
                          I completely agree! Most pagans are far too happy being trendy individuals to unite behind a bigger cause. The popularity of eclecticism and other New Agey stuff isn't helping the situation. If paganism is to survive to 2063 there needs to be more concrete organizations with specific belief systems. Failure to do so will most likely result in paganism homogenizing into some kind of hippie gook, becoming stagnant or lapsing back into Judeo-Christianity since most sects are liberalizing.

                          Just look back at history. Christianity was nothing until the different councils started happening and they were cemented into a distinct religion separate from Judaism. The trad pagan religions need to look back at that and take note. Organization is the only way to move forward.

                          If anything we need to stop moving towards eclecticism. Fredrick the Great has a nice quote that fits nicely, "He who defends everything defends nothing." AND if that doesn't convince you here's a video of what the vast majority of New Agey pagans are really like.

                          How much do a Purple Haired Pagan and a Radical Jesus Freak have in common? More than you'd normally think in THIS Hollywood Boulevard Encounter! Check it ...


                          It's 13 minutes but it's pretty good. You see the "Kemetic pagan" drop her faith as soon as the Christian starts pushing her. She tries to chime in with eclectic thought but it can't stand against organized Christian doctrine. It's really quite sad and the first time I saw it I thought I was going to be sick.
                          If pagans decide to become more organized , we would no longer have the key value that paganism has always had and that is to be about an individual not a mass of people for example pagans worship are gods to protect us our lively hood and our family while its common to have small community worship its not on a big scale like Christianity and I'm rather certain it never will and like one of the posters have said already its like herding cats
                          Knowledge is the key to eternity. Not bowing before a deity not grovling at the feet of a messiah. Knowledge is power beyond mesure - satanic witch

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                            #28
                            Re: Paganism in 2063

                            thank you, thalassa!

                            those are perfect examples of how to help remove stigma, as well as bring awareness! if i had a reliable form of transportation, i would probably do a lot of volunteering.....but alas! i live in the boonies, and my car really sucks.
                            i wish i knew more Pagans in my area still.....

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Paganism in 2063

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                              Going out, being a regular person, and being Pagan is what changes people's POV. Its not a matter of having visible temples. Its a matter of volunteering your time at a soup kitchen, and when someone asks why, saying its a religious calling to Brigid or Ascelpus, etc. That your religion and your gods call upon you to treat your fellow man with kindness. Its a matter of organizing a beach or park clean up or planting trees, and when someone asks why, telling them that its because you worship the Sea and the Land. Its a matter of LIVING as a good, decent, compassionate human being committed to justice, and then crediting your religious beliefs and practices for being your inspiration and catalyst for action.

                              Temples on the scale of the ancients...or the Vatican or Rick Warren and any number of new Christianities, is a wasteful folly, that I would hope we can someday grow beyond. IMO, its the human equivalent of territorial marking.
                              I would hardly call honoring them wasteful. Temples belong to the people. It is not territory. It is designing a building to honor them. Now building a wall along "national borders", or placing a flag, that's territorial marking. The temple is a sacred space, truly restricted to none. If nothing else, does it not pain you to see all this glorious art left to crumble? Those ancient temples were no mere territorial markers. They were something much greater.

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                                #30
                                Re: Paganism in 2063

                                Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
                                I would hardly call honoring them wasteful. Temples belong to the people. It is not territory. It is designing a building to honor them. Now building a wall along "national borders", or placing a flag, that's territorial marking. The temple is a sacred space, truly restricted to none. If nothing else, does it not pain you to see all this glorious art left to crumble? Those ancient temples were no mere territorial markers. They were something much greater.
                                I totally agree.

                                I go even a step further and consider these shrines to be a meeting place. Somewhere that people can come together as a group, without fear of reprisal or oppression. Thal's example of an individual, working a soup kitchen, to honor their gods is wonderful. But it falls short of allowing a community of followers to organize it's own soup kitchen. All these ideas of temples or shrines being wasteful, that's nothing but a fallacy in this age of decadence. The only thing wasteful is the tax exempt status of certain *types* of meeting places. If we all come to meetings at my house, in this religious context, I can't claim tax exempt status for the space devoted to whichever pagan/Neo-Pagan gods or goddesses. Why? Why do only SOME temples, churches, mosques or synagogues, get to be considered valid religious structures? Why do only SOME religions get to do things, large events, for their community?

                                That's leaving all historical and cultural value aside. I mean, forget heritage sites. I'm JUST talking about today's *hidden agenda* to maintain the status quo of religious INequality. Oppression, or suppression, rather, and ignorance galore is perfectly acceptable behaviors when focused toward Wicca or Asatru but aim that degradation at an Abrahamic tradition and suddenly it's all about Religious Freedom. Hypocrisy on a grand scale. A double standard that NEEDS to go away. "If you belong to one of *these* religions, your gathering place is fine. But if you belong to one of these others? Go hide in your basement."


                                But, oh, we cannot leave historical and cultural values out of it. People scream for better education and at the same time want to put high rise apartments in place of centuries old monuments. That's identical to supporting Native American heritage but disposing of all heritage sites; Allowing Muslims all due rights to practice Islam but banning new mosques and destroying old ones; Protesting for the preservation of our forests and then clear-cutting them for the pulp to make pamphlets on how to maintain the old growth forests. A simple matter of not practicing what you preach, yes? Nope. Cherry picking what someone deems is equal and fair to everyone (blacks sitting down to dine at Woolworth's, anyone?) is just more suitable. Crush the temples. Enslave the women? Rape and pillage, just updated for the 21st century?

                                Yeah, we don't need any equality. Prejudice, bigotry and hatred are much easier to maintain without all that fairness jazz.




                                "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                                "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                                "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                                "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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