Good and bad deities

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Good and bad deities

...And you have proof to support your factual statement?

Uhm... Hopefully she won't feel the need to cite the humongous body of literature regarding the evolution of human beings...

[Bjorn]

Re: Good and bad deities

Uhm... Hopefully she won't feel the need to cite the humongous body of literature regarding the evolution of human beings...

Yeah, I was going to leave that there. You can lead a horse to water, and all of that.

Ok, I'm out. You guys all have fun in here, debating good and evil gods.

- - - Updated - - -

I lied.

So? It shows people wrote about them, that's not proof that humans invented them.

Do you think that every god ever written about is real? If so, I can totally understand this stance.

Do you not think that gods reflected the cultures of the people in question, and the times in which they lived?

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Good and bad deities

Uhm... Hopefully she won't feel the need to cite the humongous body of literature regarding the evolution of human beings...

Still doesn't prove her claim that humans invented gods.

Yes it's hard to prove a negative, but she made the statement as fact, so it's up to her to back it up.

[Bjorn]

Re: Good and bad deities

Still doesn't prove her claim that humans invented gods.

Yes it's hard to prove a negative, but she made the statement as fact, so it's up to her to back it up.

You are correct -- I made the mistake of making an absolutist statement on something that, ultimately, cannot be known. My bad! What I mean is that my claim is what makes the most sense to me and does not place stock in the scribbles of humans, even if they WERE inspired texts.

NOW BACK ON TOPIC: I see that you practice some Heathenism (if your "religion" slot is up-to-date) so I would like to know if the idea of "good and bad" deities rings at all true for you. The Vanir being more inclined towards fertility and things that could easily be considered "gentler" as opposed to the Aesir?

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Good and bad deities

No, good and bad does not make sense to me. If you read the sagas while there are defined ideas of what is "good" and "bad" it's very contextual and exists within many gradient levels of such. Then of course there is how some things that are considered "good" in the sagas really aren't by our current cultural standard (such as Odin raping Rindr).

[Bjorn]

Re: Good and bad deities

No, good and bad does not make sense to me. If you read the sagas while there are defined ideas of what is "good" and "bad" it's very contextual and exists within many gradient levels of such. Then of course there is how some things that are considered "good" in the sagas really aren't by our current cultural standard (such as Odin raping Rindr).

The Grecco-Roman gods weren't exactly paragons of virtue either. I always thought Zeus was a giant dick when I read the myths and I always harbored a hatred for him, despite his triumph over the titans. I felt very, very bad for Hera and completely identified with why she'd be so jealous and conniving. Hell, if I were a goddess I would be smiting people left and right, especially if my husband was trying to woo them as swans and bulls and whatnot.

[Medusa]

Re: Good and bad deities

Well I don't think the gods are made up. I think they are real beings. That is MY FAITH and neither of you has to agree. I keep science in faith apart because science is provable. And again NO ONE ELSE HAD TO AGREE WITH THAT CAUSE IT'S PERSONAL. Don't like it fine but don't give shit for it. I gave my opinion without giving anyone else shit. See how that work.

Just throwing this out there. If they are real, would there not be some proof?
Just asking. I don't have a horse in this race.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Good and bad deities

I have my proof, subjective as it is. But that's all I need since it's my path.

[Gleb]

Re: Good and bad deities

I don't know why people have to apply science to faith. Evolution is a fact but at some point the gods say they became in involved. People assume that it's physical but I have always thought it was the placement of the soul. Changing our nature and relationship with them and the spiritual world. You can't apply science to the soul.

I am not forcing my opinion, but I think that science and divine powers don't interfere each other, that they are somehow connected.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Good and bad deities

I feel the same, Gleb.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Good and bad deities

No, good and bad does not make sense to me. If you read the sagas while there are defined ideas of what is "good" and "bad" it's very contextual and exists within many gradient levels of such. Then of course there is how some things that are considered "good" in the sagas really aren't by our current cultural standard (such as Odin raping Rindr).

I very much agree with this. And I think that this is really the key fault with the 'gods gave us our morality' argument that cropped up early in this thread. If the gods gave us our morality, then why do we have societal and cultural standards that directly oppose the actions of the gods?

Of course, some would argue that the gods reflect a morality that existed at the time they were originally worshiped (or were invented, for the non-theists). And perhaps that could be said to be true. But I think it's patently obvious that humanity has evolved well past whatever moral codes may or may not have been given to us by an external force.

The Grecco-Roman gods weren't exactly paragons of virtue either. I always thought Zeus was a giant dick when I read the myths and I always harbored a hatred for him, despite his triumph over the titans. I felt very, very bad for Hera and completely identified with why she'd be so jealous and conniving. Hell, if I were a goddess I would be smiting people left and right, especially if my husband was trying to woo them as swans and bulls and whatnot.

As a person who works with Jontar and Demons, ^ this is an argument that I often pull out when people are talking about 'good' and 'bad' deities.

A great many of the popular, mainstream deities did a great many cruel and shitty things. Yet there are those who idolise deities like Zeus, Odhinn and Osiris and consider them to be 'good' and benevolent. To be honest, it smacks of cherry-picking mythology to me. My deities aren't perfect. They've done things benevolent to humanity and things that are malevolent to humanity. So has every other deity worshiped by man.

[Bjorn]

Re: Good and bad deities

I very much agree with this. And I think that this is really the key fault with the 'gods gave us our morality' argument that cropped up early in this thread. If the gods gave us our morality, then why do we have societal and cultural standards that directly oppose the actions of the gods?

Of course, some would argue that the gods reflect a morality that existed at the time they were originally worshiped (or were invented, for the non-theists). And perhaps that could be said to be true. But I think it's patently obvious that humanity has evolved well past whatever moral codes may or may not have been given to us by an external force.

Indeed, many of the gods were portrayed to have very human qualities and to engage in what some would consider "human" follies, such as envy, wrath, incest, murder, etc!

As a person who works with Jontar and Demons, ^ this is an argument that I often pull out when people are talking about 'good' and 'bad' deities.

A great many of the popular, mainstream deities did a great many cruel and shitty things. Yet there are those who idolise deities like Zeus, Odhinn and Osiris and consider them to be 'good' and benevolent. To be honest, it smacks of cherry-picking mythology to me. My deities aren't perfect. They've done things benevolent to humanity and things that are malevolent to humanity. So has every other deity worshiped by man.

This is a very interesting thought, one perhaps I think we could expound upon in another thread: were the gods supposed to be perfect? Does the idea of polytheism allow for more individuality and imperfection as opposed to the idea of monotheism, which tends to suggest a more benevolent, or at least ambivalent, attitude (despite the fact that the most obvious example in my experience is the Christian god, who flooded the world instead of trying to talk to his creations, thusly being, probably...the biggest dick in the world).

[Rae'ya]

Re: Good and bad deities

As a person who works with Jontar and Demons...

Urgh, just realised I typo-ed... that should read 'Jotnar' not 'Jontar'

This is a very interesting thought, one perhaps I think we could expound upon in another thread: were the gods supposed to be perfect? Does the idea of polytheism allow for more individuality and imperfection as opposed to the idea of monotheism, which tends to suggest a more benevolent, or at least ambivalent, attitude (despite the fact that the most obvious example in my experience is the Christian god, who flooded the world instead of trying to talk to his creations, thusly being, probably...the biggest dick in the world).

I'd be in on that discussion.

My own opinion is definitely coloured by the fact that my hard-polytheism sees deities are spirits, who I don't think are perfect. While my panentheism sees 'The Divine' as so far outside of any sort of human ideals that there is little point in trying to define it as 'perfect' or 'not perfect'. And of course... who defines 'perfect'?

I'll leave it there for now but if you want a tl;dr answer then open another thread and I'll be there with bells on