Good and bad deities

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Good and bad deities

I'd love to see you disprove that as well...

Also I'm not saying that if one doesn't believe in gods and goddesses, we are without morals. I'm saying THEY are the ones that gave us codes, morals, ethics and so forth. After all they gave everything else to us. Civilization, science, magic. Don't you think it's kind of obvious that they would have given us codes and morals to help us reach a higher plane of existence when we leave this planet? Without them, we'd be animal like and primal. They made us what we are.

Personally I think the gods / goddesses gave us potential then leave much of it to us to decide how to utilize that potential. We can choose what ethics, morality, beliefs we will create, utilize or ignore. That to include any degree's we might take any aspect to or observe in our own lives. Unfortunately it also allows for whatever degree of "Sheeple" we allow ourselves to progress to by relying upon another person, group or institution to understand, analyse, evaluate and explain what they say the God, god or goddess was trying to show us as they "Read" the signs, oracles, seerer's, etc and translate that message. Of course that also allows for manipulation and control over society / ethics / morality as they surrender their own minds to the "Dogmatic" actions to act and control them.

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So we were cave people before and with evolution we just all of a sudden had a concept of civilization, money, science, magic and so forth? How is a person who barely knows how to use sticks and stones, knows how to do arithmetic, science and chemical experiments and wielding spiritual power? Other animals who have been around longer than humans didn't "suddenly" evolve into higher beings. We didn't teach ourselves this. Somebody taught us this. That would be the gods and goddesses There's numerous stories of higher beings coming from other realms and taught us this. I know some are stories and legends almost all stories and legends have some truth to them. Otherwise they wouldn't be legends. Also when humans had a concept of civilization, how come other humans from native American tribes or Africans didn't come up with civilization and science? A lot of native americans and Africans were still tribal and lived in huts or caves. Shouldn't they too have evolved and make their own civilization? Even in modern times there were tribes that saw airplanes and didn't understand how they could fly. These were more of the isolated tribes but they didn't come up with science or magic. Why did only certain people gain access to science and magic while others didn't have that grasp? Maybe because the deities carved certain areas and spent more time in certain areas so those people were taught more things than other groups of people. I don't think evolution would make us say "You know I have this great idea called "civilization" where we'll have kings, buildings and scientific experiments even though I don't know what civilization or science is." Other beings interfered with us and taught us these things. Even alchemy was considered "a gift from God" to the Jews.

However with good and bad deities I figure most pantheon were good since they taught us many things, but there were rebels who went against their pantheon and started their own group. Maybe some were jealous and wanted worshippers for themselves or just wanted to cause trouble. There are legends of many wars with deities what with the Titans and Olympians and the War in Heaven. Satan and Loki are often looked at as traitors at least to their pantheon. Others such as Moloch or Asmodeus wanted more power for themselves and are enemies to Jews and Christians and so forth.

Truthfully I'd say your confusing technology with civilization. There is a considerable leap in technology from our most archaic ancestors to the technological jumps and leaps that have been made over the years. However such leaps have not been uniform across the board and many times appear to be related to conflict and inspiration derived from conflict. Yet civilization has moved at a slower more progressive rate as it advanced from a hunter - gather society, to an agricultural based society to a self sustaining society able to create a surplus which also gives rise to the creation of a artisan class. You also appear to be confusing the usages of various building materials to suggest civilization where in most instances it was geographical locations and availability which suggested what was used for building materials. ie adobe in hot dry areas' vice timber in forested areas or stone in heavily deforested areas or rocky terrain.

As to good or bad it is always derived from ones perspective as to which side it falls upon. The same would be said of any action from a god / goddess. Help the crops grow your good, cause them to wither and die your bad. I personally think it's that simple and that subjective.

[thalassa]

Re: Good and bad deities

So we were cave people before and with evolution we just all of a sudden had a concept of civilization, money, science, magic and so forth? How is a person who barely knows how to use sticks and stones, knows how to do arithmetic, science and chemical experiments and wielding spiritual power? Other animals who have been around longer than humans didn't "suddenly" evolve into higher beings. We didn't teach ourselves this.

Hominids have been around for 4.4 million years. Homo sapiens, some 100,000. This didn't just "suddenly" happen. Archaeological evidence (though rare) of human culture (beads, tools, fires, trash pits) date as far back as 80,000 years ago. Animal domestication occurred some 10-13,000 years ago, crop farming some 11,000 years ago, and before that, there is evidence that a number of human groups practiced forest gardening. The first temple shows up around 11,000 years ago and cities around 7,000 years ago. Writing developed some 5,000 years ago, and the printing press just 563 years ago. Deities had nothing to do with it. Its called cultural evolution, and it occurs at a much speedier rate than biological evolution.

Also, Homo sapiens isn't the only species to have culture or cultural evolution, we are just the only species (that we know of) that has uniquely agile fingers to craft and manipulate complex tools, language capable of transmitting abstract ideas (thanks in part to the development of our complex neck and mouth anatomy), and an extended childhood (as a result of our big brain) that allows for a transmission of greater amounts of information from one generation to the next. Add to that the stability of a food source that comes from agriculture, cities full of people to exchange information, and the development of writing to store information without the need to memorize it... I'm more surprised that it took so LONG achieve what we have as a species. Again, gods not necessary...and if they did have something to do with it, they didn't exactly do a very good job.

This isn't sudden, its a gradual process that has built upon itself exponentially.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Good and bad deities

If you're new to the study of history, you may be still working with the schoolroom whirlwind study of the past - first there were Neanderthals, then Homo sapiens, then small wandering tribes, then Egypt, then Greece, then Rome, then Europe, then ( if you are US educated) Amerika. Forget China - it's relegated to an Asian ghetto, despite having a written history beginning around 3000 years before the events fancifully recorded in the Old Testament.

There was a whole heck of a lot going on besides that... Even names you're familiar with, like Babylon, Ur, Minoa, etc. are left completely out.


If you've been watching Ancient Alien stuff on TV, you've been purposely misled. For example, they give you the impression that the Egyptians suddenly, one day, out of the blue, decided to build massive architecture, like pyramids.

In actually, they have a long architectural history. There was nothing 'sudden' in the building of pyramids - they started with burial mounds, moved on to rock piles, then 'bee-hive' tombs built of brick, then mini-mountain rock structures, then pyramids...

A good study of history will take the 'suddenly' out of your thinking, and replace it with greater respect for the accomplishments of our mutually shared species.

If we were taught by advanced gods (or aliens), why did we get Galen and Aristotle - as brilliant as they were, they were wrong more often than they were right.

Still, they were an advance over those who preceded them.

[Corvus]

Re: Good and bad deities

Hominids have been around for 4.4 million years. Homo sapiens, some 100,000. This didn't just "suddenly" happen. Archaeological evidence (though rare) of human culture (beads, tools, fires, trash pits) date as far back as 80,000 years ago. Animal domestication occurred some 10-13,000 years ago, crop farming some 11,000 years ago, and before that, there is evidence that a number of human groups practiced forest gardening. The first temple shows up around 11,000 years ago and cities around 7,000 years ago. Writing developed some 5,000 years ago, and the printing press just 563 years ago. Deities had nothing to do with it. Its called cultural evolution, and it occurs at a much speedier rate than biological evolution.

I once was talking to my friend's dad about science and we got to evolution and since he's a creationist he kept denying all of the above. It ended when he slammed a pepsi can in front of me and said "so you're saying this will turn into an animal" followed by my "It doesn't work like that". Whether through misinformation or willful denial, people dead set on [insert deity here] made man and civilization and life and things, even facts won't help if they're set in their minds.

(in case you're interested the guy I was talking about also thinks man and dinosaurs lived at the same time, that carbon dating is wrong 100% of the time and global warming is a myth/pollution has no affect on the atmosphere. He's ingrained it in his children too but since they're not so oblivious to reason they trip up after a bit)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Good and bad deities

When I was teaching college prep writing, I frequently had students who wanted to write anti- evolution pieces. Typically, they cited this- that scientists can not describe the mechanism through which the eyeball developed. I don't know where they got that crap - evolution & natural selection IS the mechanism through which the eyeball developed, and it's pretty well described.

Begin with cell that can sense light (a bean sprout growing in a windowsill will bend toward light), give it a few thousand years, and something like an eyeball is inevitable.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Good and bad deities

In the bible it was animals that were sacrificed to Yahweh, not children. Human sacrifice as I know was not a practice in Judaism and animal sacrifice was used as sin offerings. Lots of religions did that

I wasn't the one talking about animal sacrifice. I said that YHVH likes the scent of burning flesh and destroyed entire cities.

On the point of sacrifice, I'll simply refer back to Torey's post seeing as he addressed that one quite adequately and I agree with what he said.

As far as morality goes, we were animal like until they showed up, they gave us moral codes and ethics. They made us what we are. We were given reason and became like gods. The bible states that.

The Bible states that we were given reason and became like gods? No. The Bible states that Eve made a choice to defy her god and ate some fruit, thus obtaining the ability to know right from wrong for herself through her own actions. YHVH would have denied her that. If you want to argue that she was given it, she would have technically been given it by the serpent seeing as he was the one who told her what the fruit would actually do. So by your 'the Bible says' logic, it's actually snakes who gave us morality.

I can quote the relevant passages for you if you don't have a Bible of your own to verify my statements with.

So we were cave people before and with evolution we just all of a sudden had a concept of civilization, money, science, magic and so forth?

Erm... no. I think that Torey, Thalassa and B de Corbin have addressed this one well enough. We didn't just 'suddenly' do this. It happened over thousands of years, which is verifiable by several different branches of actual science.

Other animals who have been around longer than humans didn't "suddenly" evolve into higher beings.

Perhaps not, but then evolution very rarely sets two distinct biological creatures down exactly the same path. And when it does, one is generally eclipsed by the other.

Aside from that, do you truly believe that humans are the only animals on this planet to have developed problem solving, reasoning and the ability to use tools? Have you never been to the zoo? Or owned a dog? Chimpanzees are capable of the use of tools... they are even capable of INVENTING said tools and the ways to use them. Not to mention creatures like the Palm Cockatoo. These Cockatoos weren't taught by The Cockatoo God how to break off sticks of the correct size and beat them against hollow trees in order to use the sound of the reverberation to choose a good nesting site. Nature is full of incredibly sophisticated problem solving and tool using systems.

There's numerous stories of higher beings coming from other realms and taught us this. I know some are stories and legends almost all stories and legends have some truth to them. Otherwise they wouldn't be legends.

I actually do happen to agree that it's likely we were taught some things by deities, or that deities may have helped us make certain leaps in technology. But that does NOT discount thousands of years of our own evolution and growth. Just because they may have taught us SOME things does not mean that they taught us EVERYTHING that we know.

Also when humans had a concept of civilization, how come other humans from native American tribes or Africans didn't come up with civilization and science? A lot of native americans and Africans were still tribal and lived in huts or caves. Shouldn't they too have evolved and make their own civilization?

I think that you are confusing 'civilisation' with 'bigger and better'. There are very specific biological, environmental and societal reasons that certain tribes remained nomadic tribes while others were forced to evolve techologically in order to sustain their populations. Big cities and computers are NOT some sort of marker for being a 'higher being' or somehow more evolved. And they are not going to get us closer to our gods.

And again... we are really not the only ones. Ants have an amazingly complex societal structure as well as being master builders and architects. Not to mention bees. The insect world is rife with examples of complex building and society... and bees have their own measurable communication system. That's civilisation.

Even in modern times there were tribes that saw airplanes and didn't understand how they could fly. These were more of the isolated tribes but they didn't come up with science or magic. Why did only certain people gain access to science and magic while others didn't have that grasp? Maybe because the deities carved certain areas and spent more time in certain areas so those people were taught more things than other groups of people.

Did you REALLY just intimate that 'non civilised' cultures don't have gods or weren't important enough for the gods to spend time on? Really?

You've just shot your own god-given-civilisation argument in the foot by trying to argue against evolution.

Even alchemy was considered "a gift from God" to the Jews.

On the other hand, if you want to get back to the Bible, the story of Babylon actually indicates that humans managed to build a huge city entirely on their own. YHVH destroyed it and took away our ability to all speak the same language specifically because humans spontaneously created a civilisation with no help from him. Genesis 11:3-9, if you're interested.

However with good and bad deities I figure most pantheon were good since they taught us many things, but there were rebels who went against their pantheon and started their own group. Maybe some were jealous and wanted worshippers for themselves or just wanted to cause trouble. There are legends of many wars with deities what with the Titans and Olympians and the War in Heaven. Satan and Loki are often looked at as traitors at least to their pantheon. Others such as Moloch or Asmodeus wanted more power for themselves and are enemies to Jews and Christians and so forth.

There are so many things in this paragraph that I want to get into, but that would derail the thread and I probably should not do that. Suffice is to say that it is entirely dependent on where you are standing, because the EXACT same things could be said of YHVH, who you have claimed several times now to be one of the entirely 'good' and beneficent gods. Plus you have completely simplified the roles of deities like Loki and the Titans. If you're interested in THAT discussion, open up another thread and I'll be there with bells on.

[Alienist]

Re: Good and bad deities

I wasn't the one talking about animal sacrifice. I said that YHVH likes the scent of burning flesh and destroyed entire cities.

On the point of sacrifice, I'll simply refer back to Torey's post seeing as he addressed that one quite adequately and I agree with what he said.



The Bible states that we were given reason and became like gods? No. The Bible states that Eve made a choice to defy her god and ate some fruit, thus obtaining the ability to know right from wrong for herself through her own actions. YHVH would have denied her that. If you want to argue that she was given it, she would have technically been given it by the serpent seeing as he was the one who told her what the fruit would actually do. So by your 'the Bible says' logic, it's actually snakes who gave us morality.

I can quote the relevant passages for you if you don't have a Bible of your own to verify my statements with.



Erm... no. I think that Torey, Thalassa and B de Corbin have addressed this one well enough. We didn't just 'suddenly' do this. It happened over thousands of years, which is verifiable by several different branches of actual science.



Perhaps not, but then evolution very rarely sets two distinct biological creatures down exactly the same path. And when it does, one is generally eclipsed by the other.

Aside from that, do you truly believe that humans are the only animals on this planet to have developed problem solving, reasoning and the ability to use tools? Have you never been to the zoo? Or owned a dog? Chimpanzees are capable of the use of tools... they are even capable of INVENTING said tools and the ways to use them. Not to mention creatures like the Palm Cockatoo. These Cockatoos weren't taught by The Cockatoo God how to break off sticks of the correct size and beat them against hollow trees in order to use the sound of the reverberation to choose a good nesting site. Nature is full of incredibly sophisticated problem solving and tool using systems.



I actually do happen to agree that it's likely we were taught some things by deities, or that deities may have helped us make certain leaps in technology. But that does NOT discount thousands of years of our own evolution and growth. Just because they may have taught us SOME things does not mean that they taught us EVERYTHING that we know.



I think that you are confusing 'civilisation' with 'bigger and better'. There are very specific biological, environmental and societal reasons that certain tribes remained nomadic tribes while others were forced to evolve techologically in order to sustain their populations. Big cities and computers are NOT some sort of marker for being a 'higher being' or somehow more evolved. And they are not going to get us closer to our gods.

And again... we are really not the only ones. Ants have an amazingly complex societal structure as well as being master builders and architects. Not to mention bees. The insect world is rife with examples of complex building and society... and bees have their own measurable communication system. That's civilisation.



Did you REALLY just intimate that 'non civilised' cultures don't have gods or weren't important enough for the gods to spend time on? Really?

You've just shot your own god-given-civilisation argument in the foot by trying to argue against evolution.



On the other hand, if you want to get back to the Bible, the story of Babylon actually indicates that humans managed to build a huge city entirely on their own. YHVH destroyed it and took away our ability to all speak the same language specifically because humans spontaneously created a civilisation with no help from him. Genesis 11:3-9, if you're interested.



There are so many things in this paragraph that I want to get into, but that would derail the thread and I probably should not do that. Suffice is to say that it is entirely dependent on where you are standing, because the EXACT same things could be said of YHVH, who you have claimed several times now to be one of the entirely 'good' and beneficent gods. Plus you have completely simplified the roles of deities like Loki and the Titans. If you're interested in THAT discussion, open up another thread and I'll be there with bells on.

Actually no, Yahweh himself says that humans became like gods "Behold the man has taken from the fruit and become like us. Should he take his hand and take from the tree of life and live forever..." Also I don't think thousands of years would have been enough for us to develop into intelligent beings. I think they taught us just about everything at least everything really important like writing, science magic and so forth. There were deities that had roles for that, like Hecate, the goddess of magic, or Thoth being the god of science magic and their writing system. If they didn't teach us, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Good and bad deities

Actually no, Yahweh himself says that humans became like gods "Behold the man has taken from the fruit and become like us. Should he take his hand and take from the tree of life and live forever..." Also I don't think thousands of years would have been enough for us to develop into intelligent beings. I think they taught us just about everything at least everything really important like writing, science magic and so forth. There were deities that had roles for that, like Hecate, the goddess of magic, or Thoth being the god of science magic and their writing system. If they didn't teach us, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Did YHVH hand her the fruit and tell her to eat it? No.

[Torey]

Re: Good and bad deities

If they didn't teach us, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Perhaps you may come across less officious, Alienist, if you used a phrasing more akin to, "in my opinion...if they didn't teach us, we wouldn't be where we are right now".

[Alienist]

Re: Good and bad deities

Did YHVH hand her the fruit and tell her to eat it? No.

He may as well if he was careless enough to leave it unguarded. He guards the Tree of Life but can't do the same for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil though. Whether he handed it to her or not doesn't change the fact that we became like the gods as we were "molded in their image"

[Rowanwood]

Re: Good and bad deities

He may as well if he was careless enough to leave it unguarded. He guards the Tree of Life but can't do the same for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil though. Whether he handed it to her or not doesn't change the fact that we became like the gods as we were "molded in their image"

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't YHVH considered omnipotent in .... every religion that venerates him? I thought the entire point of the tree was as a test of our free will...that we failed hence original sin? Am I high? Was I not paying attention all those years I was an evangelical Christian and the previous years as a Catholic?

That was no gift, it was a test that we got an F on. That's a pretty big leap to go from that to "God made me an iPhone because god."

[Alienist]

Re: Good and bad deities

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't YHVH considered omnipotent in .... every religion that venerates him? I thought the entire point of the tree was as a test of our free will...that we failed hence original sin? Am I high? Was I not paying attention all those years I was an evangelical Christian and the previous years as a Catholic?

That was no gift, it was a test that we got an F on. That's a pretty big leap to go from that to "God made me an iPhone because god."

A lot of deities particularly the monotheistic faiths think their deity is omnipotent even though nothing could be further from the truth. None of the deities in my opinion are omnipotent, just powerful. Was it a test? Or is that how we interpreted it? I just figured we messed up and made God angry. I mean because we ate from the fruit, we became like God and knew good from evil. All we had to do was eat from the Tree of Life and we would be like God. I don't think even God was counting on this.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Good and bad deities

He stuck the tree unguarded in the center of a garden with beings capable of reason and choice (the serpent made an argument and Eve chose to eat therefore they had both), he may not have expected the decision but he sure as hell knew it was possible and didn't do a thing to prevent it.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Good and bad deities

A lot of deities particularly the monotheistic faiths think their deity is omnipotent even though nothing could be further from the truth. None of the deities in my opinion are omnipotent, just powerful. Was it a test? Or is that how we interpreted it? I just figured we messed up and made God angry. I mean because we ate from the fruit, we became like God and knew good from evil. All we had to do was eat from the Tree of Life and we would be like God. I don't think even God was counting on this.

So now you are telling me that all Christians, Jews and Muslims are just "wrong" because you say so, and clearly their God was just kidding that he was all powerful.

Riiiight. You might want to be careful where you decide to share that little peach of wisdom.

[Alienist]

Re: Good and bad deities

So now you are telling me that all Christians, Jews and Muslims are just "wrong" because you say so, and clearly their God was just kidding that he was all powerful.

Riiiight. You might want to be careful where you decide to share that little peach of wisdom.

It would be greatly appreciated if you actually read my post. If you had you would notice I said it's IN MY OPINION. I'm assuming you haven't even glanced at a bible. If you had you would notice right away Yahweh is NOT omnipotent.

He's not omnipotent because he wants worshippers to do certain things and asks things of the worshippers like fighting invaders or building things. An omnipotent being who can create anything with a mere thought would not request such things. The only reason he's considered omnipotent is because he's powerful compared to people who use sticks and stones. Of course even a powerful person would SEEM omnipotent just like we seem omnipotent compared to an ant.

He's not omniscient because he asks questions such as asking Adam if he took the fruit. An all knowing person would already have known he took from the fruit

He's not omnipresent because he would have seen Eve take from the fruit and know the Serpent deceived her. He would have seen it and stopped her from taking it. I don't think a fruit that makes a person "like God" is in Yahweh's favor, especially considering that he's a jealous god and doesn't want competition.

Don't try to make my posts 50 times worse than it actually is. There's no need to exaggerate. Don't believe EVERYTHING you read. That includes the Bible. There are some things that are true in the bible and something's that are, well, not lies, but, exaggerations. His power is one of those exaggerations.