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    #91
    Re: Agnosticism Discussion

    Originally posted by Medusa View Post
    Mickey is real!
    No he's not!
    But my Disneyland Official Brochure has him right on the cover!
    But my Magic Mountain doesn't mention him. It's all about Montezuma yo.

    This is how it sounds to me.
    Haha, you never fail to sum it up succinctly and with a brand of humor I thoroughly appreciate.
    No one tells the wind which way to blow.

    Comment


      #92
      Re: Agnosticism Discussion

      I'm not sure I understand why you seem to be going out of your way to establish a gap between yourself and the "theists," especially since I'm fairly certain that you'd find that most of the "theists" are much closer to your own beliefs than they are to a fundamentalist Christian 'world created 6 thousand years ago in 7 days" type, here certainly, and probably in the wider community of paganism and alternative spirituality too. It feels like you're going out of your way to adopt a label which intentionally puts a wall between you and other people where one otherwise doesn't exist.

      I also think you're vastly overestimating how many people actually believe that they know "the truth" about the divine, or even a truth. Most people with an alternative spiritual practice, in my experience, just adopt the model of divinity which best suits them and matches their experience and understanding, and will freely admit that they don't know for sure and that other models are likely just as valid. The only difference I see is that you go out of the way to stress that you know God to be inherently unknowable, whereas most people simply stop at 'I don't know,' without presuming to know whether anyone else out in the vast universe does.
      Last edited by Aeran; 13 Dec 2013, 19:06.

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        #93
        Re: Agnosticism Discussion

        Who are you talking to?
        Satan is my spirit animal

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          #94
          Re: Agnosticism Discussion

          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
          Who are you talking to?
          Me, he doesn't appreciate it when I say that everyone is wrong.
          No one tells the wind which way to blow.

          Comment


            #95
            Re: Agnosticism Discussion

            Originally posted by Bjorn View Post
            Me, he doesn't appreciate it when I say that everyone is wrong.
            But you are just pointing out a fact. Everyone is wrong about something or other. And you aren't saying you are right about everything.

            Meh.
            Satan is my spirit animal

            Comment


              #96
              Re: Agnosticism Discussion

              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
              But you are just pointing out a fact. Everyone is wrong about something or other. And you aren't saying you are right about everything.

              Meh.
              I know. He's been really active on this thread so I think it's like a child worrying a tooth to death -- he can't help but try and prove me wrong about saying that everyone is wrong. Sure, I haven't pussyfooted around it, but this is my damn thread, and it's agnostic, so yeah, I'm going to flex my militant stance as much as I want without being an intentional asshat.

              But agnosticism DOES say that knowledge of god is ultimately unknowable. If there were one religion or one path that was showing signs of evidence then it would make sense, but not a damn thing has come to the light. We are every bit as removed from god and the knowledge thereof as we ever have been or will be.

              People don't like to be told they're wrong. I don't really care because I KNOW I'm wrong about my path -- but I do NOT believe that I am wrong in that we will never know or have concrete evidence of god. Everyone likes to live in their little bubble of glitter and unicorns and I imagine many people feel as if I'm poking at those bubbles. And I am. Because I think belief in Thor, Athena, Horus, or any other mythological pantheon as REAL BEINGS is just...well...stupid.
              Last edited by Bjorn; 13 Dec 2013, 20:03.
              No one tells the wind which way to blow.

              Comment


                #97
                Re: Agnosticism Discussion

                It blows me away how volatile of a topic this has turned out to be.

                Agnostic: from the Greek, literally, "without knowledge"

                Basically, the stance that we do not, and cannot know everything, and thus cannot know for sure if there is, or is not, a god... Why does this offend so?

                Bjorn retains spirituality... she is an agnostic spiritualist.
                There are those (most Christians that I know, for instance) that are agnostic theists.
                Medusa and I are non-believers... we are agnostic atheists.

                Agnosticism does not separate from theism... in fact, it makes no claims about theism/atheism... it is a philosophical argument about the knowability of god.
                "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

                Comment


                  #98
                  Re: Agnosticism Discussion

                  I know. He's been really active on this thread so I think it's like a child worrying a tooth to death -- he can't help but try and prove me wrong about saying that everyone is wrong. Sure, I haven't pussyfooted around it, but this is my damn thread, and it's agnostic, so yeah, I'm going to flex my militant stance as much as I want without being an intentional asshat.
                  You're entirely missing the point. of the two of us, you're the one claiming a greater knowledge about God, I (and, I believe, most people on this forum and who follow an alternative spiritual path in general) simply say 'I don't know,' but you say, 'I don't know, but I know that nobody else knows.'

                  It isn't your claim that everyone is wrong which bothers me. I'll freely admit that it's possible that everyone, ever, is wrong, and that it's likely that the vast, vast majority of people who claim to know something, are in fact wrong. And it's certain that I'm wrong. But I don't know whether everyone, ever, is wrong, since I don't know enough about the divine to know whether it is possible that someone knows something about it. 'I don't know,' logically extends to 'I don't know if anyone else knows.'

                  You enjoy deriding people you give the artificial distinction of "theist," but you actually claim to know more about God than they do. That is literally the only difference between you and most of the people here.


                  People don't like to be told they're wrong. I don't really care because I KNOW I'm wrong about my path -- but I do NOT believe that I am wrong in that we will never know or have concrete evidence of god. Everyone likes to live in their little bubble of glitter and unicorns and I imagine many people feel as if I'm poking at those bubbles. And I am. Because I think belief in Thor, Athena, Horus, or any other mythological pantheon as REAL BEINGS is just...well...stupid.
                  And here again, you massively misrepresent people's beliefs to differentiate yourself from them. Very few people view deities as literal, independent beings. My experience is that the majority of people view them as either psychological constructs or as personifications of natural forces. As a kind of working model which allows them to interpret and understand the world around them.


                  Basically, the stance that we do not, and cannot know everything, and thus cannot know for sure if there is, or is not, a god... Why does this offend so?
                  Agnosticism doesn't offend me at all, in fact if you want to get technical I fall under the label itself. What does offend me is Bjorn's insistance on projecting an entirely false interpretation of "theism" onto other people so she can use it to differentiate herself from them. It's just flat out false to claim that even a sizeable minority of people, here or in the wider community of alternative beliefs, believe in God(s) as literal, independent beings. I think most people here would agree with Bjorn entirely if she'd stop using labels to erect artificial barriers and stop projecting her own false and, frankly, insulting conception of "theism" onto people who believe nothing of the sort.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Re: Agnosticism Discussion

                    Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                    You're entirely missing the point. of the two of us, you're the one claiming a greater knowledge about God, I (and, I believe, most people on this forum and who follow an alternative spiritual path in general) simply say 'I don't know,' but you say, 'I don't know, but I know that nobody else knows.'
                    And I included myself in that category. Everyone else = humans. Humans cannot know. PERIOD.

                    All the rest is noise.
                    No one tells the wind which way to blow.

                    Comment


                      Re: Agnosticism Discussion

                      And I included myself in that category. Everyone else = humans. Humans cannot know. PERIOD.

                      All the rest is noise.
                      So putting aside the philosophical debate - why do you keep projecting the label of your distorted understanding of "theism" onto people? Everybody is agreeing that nobody here ultimately knows the truth about God, the rest is just a tiny philosophical distinction about whether it is ever, potentially, possible that is is possible to know something. Hardly a good reason to use labels to establish artificial distinctions between people, not to mention looking down on and mocking people for beliefs they don't hold.



                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Oh, and for someone who told me off for being 'snide' earlier, you've spent a lot of time belittling certain beliefs, and misrepresenting people as holding those beliefs when they in fact don't. Not to mention talking over my head instead of responding to me directly and attributing false beliefs and misguided (and insulting) motivations to me. I don't know if you just genuinely don't understand what I'm saying, or whether it's an attempt to make yourself seem mature and intelligent, but it's extremely condescending, not to mention hypocritical (in light of what you got angry at me for earlier in the thread) and not at all conducive of maintaining the "civil discussion" you claim to want.

                      Comment


                        Re: Agnosticism Discussion

                        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                        So putting aside the philosophical debate - why do you keep projecting the label of your distorted understanding of "theism" onto people? Everybody is agreeing that nobody here ultimately knows the truth about God, the rest is just a tiny philosophical distinction about whether it is ever, potentially, possible that is is possible to know something. Hardly a good reason to use labels to establish artificial distinctions between people, not to mention looking down on and mocking people for beliefs they don't hold.
                        Pretty sure you and Denarius are the only ones who've been bothered so far and I will readily admit that I have done nothing to try and pacify your feelings.

                        Secondly, they're only labels if you IDENTIFY with them -- otherwise they're just words used to help best describe things, and yes, there is a reason to hold a distinction. That is why we have a separate section for Atheism and Agnosticism, which you seem to delight in visiting. The separation exists so that we understand where the other person(s) are coming from so to sit here and continue to have an argument about splitting hairs and hurt feelings is, as I said, NOISE. With one exception that I apologized for today I have refrained from posting on most of the theistic sections and threads on PF seeing as how they do not apply to my beliefs and therefore, I would have nothing beneficial to add to the discussion. These ideas I'm projecting onto theists? I think you're taking them on. Yeah, I think it's stupid -- that should be implied when you click on the Atheism and Agnosticism thread. WATCH OUT: here be asshole. And you're in the wrong section if you don't want to hear about how strongly I believe these things.

                        I know you can read. I know you're smart. It's like going into a church and getting pissed off that they're talking about Jesus. You actions here make no sense whatsoever. You don't have to keep reading. You don't have to keep responding. You're incensed and you refuse to let it be. That's on you, homes.

                        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                        Oh, and for someone who told me off for being 'snide' earlier, you've spent a lot of time belittling certain beliefs, and misrepresenting people as holding those beliefs when they in fact don't. Not to mention talking over my head instead of responding to me directly and attributing false beliefs and misguided (and insulting) motivations to me. I don't know if you just genuinely don't understand what I'm saying, or whether it's an attempt to make yourself seem mature and intelligent, but it's extremely condescending, not to mention hypocritical (in light of what you got angry at me for earlier in the thread) and not at all conducive of maintaining the "civil discussion" you claim to want.
                        We're not discussing anything anymore -- it has whittled down to insults and pedantry. And, like I said before, you are in the wrong section if you want to be mad at atheists and agnostics vehemently sharing their beliefs. Perhaps I am the only one who feels that way, but you're in OUR town now, buddy. When in Rome.
                        No one tells the wind which way to blow.

                        Comment


                          Re: Agnosticism Discussion

                          I do not actually have the patience to see how much further this thread can fall tonight so I'm not going to.

                          Thread sealed, pending further review by staff.
                          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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