Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Basic income

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Basic income

    Basic income is a system of social security where the government pays citizens for being alive. Through such a system poverty could be, at least mostly, eliminated.

    It are actually quite a few ways it could be funded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Funding It has also shown promising results when tested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

    Here's an interesting article, which got me interested to begin with. http://www.businessinsider.com/givin...overty-2013-11

    Thoughts?
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

    #2
    Re: Basic income

    I'm still trying to work this one out. I think it could have a huge positive impact in many respects and it -could- be feasible, but it could also have some negative effects and it may -not- be feasible. It depends on a lot of factors and how it's implemented, I think.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Basic income

      I can only question where the funds for this would come from? I vaguely recall Rome had something like this and it collapsed under its own weight in the end and was in part responsible for the failure.
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Basic income

        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
        I can only question where the funds for this would come from? I vaguely recall Rome had something like this and it collapsed under its own weight in the end and was in part responsible for the failure.
        ^ This.

        This removes any real requirement to work, hence most people stop working. Who's going to clean toilets if the government will just pay you to be alive? Who's going to dig ditches and empty bed pans and flip burgers? No one, that's who.

        The government has no money. It only has YOUR MONEY that you've earned and pay them via taxes. If you choose to work, you'll bear the burden of all those that don't (you already do to some extent, but this takes it WAY to the next level) and eventually even a lot of people with a good work ethic are going to say...what's the benefit? What's the point? And they quit too. THAT'S exactly what happened in Rome and it is the PRIMARY the reason the Roman Empire fell.

        It's called "the worst idea ever."


        People seriously need to learn their history.

        ** Please note, I have nothing against social programs to help those unable to work, and to help and encourage those in times of need in between gainful employment, etc. I just don't like a giant government parent because that's just crap. **

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Basic income

          Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
          ^ This.

          This removes any real requirement to work, hence most people stop working. Who's going to clean toilets if the government will just pay you to be alive? Who's going to dig ditches and empty bed pans and flip burgers? No one, that's who.

          The government has no money. It only has YOUR MONEY that you've earned and pay them via taxes. If you choose to work, you'll bear the burden of all those that don't (you already do to some extent, but this takes it WAY to the next level) and eventually even a lot of people with a good work ethic are going to say...what's the benefit? What's the point? And they quit too. THAT'S exactly what happened in Rome and it is the PRIMARY the reason the Roman Empire fell.

          It's called "the worst idea ever."


          People seriously need to learn their history.

          ** Please note, I have nothing against social programs to help those unable to work, and to help and encourage those in times of need in between gainful employment, etc. I just don't like a giant government parent because that's just crap. **
          What if all that was provided was like, a dorm room and a meal a day, or the equivilant? It's enough to keep you alive, but you still have incentive to go out and work to better your lifestyle. Just a thought, I'm really iffy on the long term feasibility anyway.
          We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

          I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
          It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
          Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
          -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

          Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Basic income

            Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
            What if all that was provided was like, a dorm room and a meal a day, or the equivilant? It's enough to keep you alive, but you still have incentive to go out and work to better your lifestyle. Just a thought, I'm really iffy on the long term feasibility anyway.
            Not the person this was directed to but doesn't it raise the question then of where will these dorm rooms and chow halls will be built or who is to foot the cost for building them? Not even considering who will maintain them and oversee all the day to day operations. Then one has to consider cohabitation, family preservation, education, etc for those who have to utilize those same structures. An issue faced even today by the many homeless and half-way houses out there and trying to keep families together yet meet the needs for everyone.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Basic income

              Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
              What if all that was provided was like, a dorm room and a meal a day, or the equivilant? It's enough to keep you alive, but you still have incentive to go out and work to better your lifestyle. Just a thought, I'm really iffy on the long term feasibility anyway.
              Honestly? People would just protest that they deserved more until they got it...you know, like they do now.

              Or they'd steal it...like they do now. Or find the loopholes in the system...I can go on......

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Basic income

                Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
                What if all that was provided was like, a dorm room and a meal a day, or the equivilant? It's enough to keep you alive, but you still have incentive to go out and work to better your lifestyle. Just a thought, I'm really iffy on the long term feasibility anyway.
                Yeah those were my thoughts as well. That isn't really my issue with it, for the most part. Also, some kinds of people (and careers) actually do -better- when they have financial security. for example, creative types usually do way better with their work. That could have consequences like more innovation, etc.

                Then again, my issues with this are:
                -There -are- spongers out there, and this could definitely encourage them. Although I think spongers are in the minority, I think we have to make our best effort to not let them sponge.
                -We do need people to pick up the trash and unclog toilets and stuff. I don't think anyone really wants to do those jobs. I don't think that people would decide not to work at all, but if you don't have to make a living, who is going to do the ugly jobs?
                -How do we feasibly pay for it? A variety of tax options were cited, but I can tell you that we already have ALL of those taxes here in Germany and I don't think we could pay more than we do for social services. As much as we would save in not providing welfare, I think this would still cost more.

                BUT my biggest problem with this is that we still have to sort out the wage problem. This doesn't fix that, it just subsidizes it. I do NOT mind paying taxes and having those tax dollars going towards people who earn less than me, but I genuinely resent the fact that those people make less because their employers refuse to pay them more. The state, and subsequently the taxpayer, effectively subsidizes these companies (which already happens here to a large extent). I don't mind helping reduce poverty at all, but I do not want to subsidize Amazon and the like. Unless something like this was accompanied by a solid minimum wage (one that could be somewhat livable) and made sure that corporations actually made contributions to the system and paid their taxes properly and didn't locate themselves in Luxemburg and claim that all their other European operations were "distribution centers" (meaning that they don't owe taxes there because they're not based there...*coughAmazoncough*), the system couldn't really be fair to the average tax payer. It would be tax payers subsidizing companies.

                But, if companies have to pay a living wage, does the state have to provide one? Probably not.

                I guess what i mean is, I like the idea of everyone being guaranteed a basic liveable income, but I don't think that this is a viable or fair solution.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Basic income

                  Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                  Honestly? People would just protest that they deserved more until they got it...you know, like they do now.

                  Or they'd steal it...like they do now. Or find the loopholes in the system...I can go on......
                  True... I forget the stupidity of the human race when we're talking large scale....

                  Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                  Not the person this was directed to but doesn't it raise the question then of where will these dorm rooms and chow halls will be built or who is to foot the cost for building them? Not even considering who will maintain them and oversee all the day to day operations. Then one has to consider cohabitation, family preservation, education, etc for those who have to utilize those same structures. An issue faced even today by the many homeless and half-way houses out there and trying to keep families together yet meet the needs for everyone.
                  When it comes to families... I don't know, maybe provide a block of rooms? Two or three. One for mom and dad, one for boy children, one for girl children. Honestly, I lived in a dorm for a year in college, it was like 15x20 ft and I shared it with a roommate. It was uncomfortable, I'd never want to do it again, but it I was facing hard times and needed a place, I wouldn't look down on it.
                  We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

                  I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
                  It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
                  Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
                  -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

                  Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Basic income

                    Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
                    .. When it comes to families... I don't know, maybe provide a block of rooms? Two or three. One for mom and dad, one for boy children, one for girl children. Honestly, I lived in a dorm for a year in college, it was like 15x20 ft and I shared it with a roommate. It was uncomfortable, I'd never want to do it again, but it I was facing hard times and needed a place, I wouldn't look down on it.
                    I know from my years in the military as both single and married it becomes a monster to handle. Figure you have to have an average amount of space perperson for living space. then you have to factor in joint habitation including gender, age. Figure a male child under a certain age can be bunked with a sister but above a certain age they can no longer be in the same room. I vaguely recall it was 10 - 12 where they had to have separate living spaces. Then take single people how many per room? What about age and gender in regards to teens especially or homeless or transient populations. That caused lots of problems for the military in regards to what was occupied, what had to be kept reserved, what was always in repair and thus unavailable, transient people who might be there for a day, a week or only a few hours waiting on transportation.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Basic income

                      Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
                      True... I forget the stupidity of the human race when we're talking large scale....



                      When it comes to families... I don't know, maybe provide a block of rooms? Two or three. One for mom and dad, one for boy children, one for girl children. Honestly, I lived in a dorm for a year in college, it was like 15x20 ft and I shared it with a roommate. It was uncomfortable, I'd never want to do it again, but it I was facing hard times and needed a place, I wouldn't look down on it.
                      Most countries with strong social safety nets already provide low income housing. It's definitely feasible.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Basic income

                        Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                        Most countries with strong social safety nets already provide low income housing. It's definitely feasible.
                        Do keep in mind, that most countries with a strong social safety net are also quite small and culturally homogeneous. This likely would not work on any large scale, because the oversight required to prevent corruption just isn't possible. You can't really compare Sweden and the US or any other large country. It's like comparing NYC and a village of 5K people. Different problems for sure.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Basic income

                          Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                          Do keep in mind, that most countries with a strong social safety net are also quite small and culturally homogeneous. This likely would not work on any large scale, because the oversight required to prevent corruption just isn't possible. You can't really compare Sweden and the US or any other large country. It's like comparing NYC and a village of 5K people. Different problems for sure.
                          Canada also provides low income housing, to an extent. But you're right, it's much smaller (though, larger in size and more culturally diverse in a lot of regions).

                          Anyway, I didn't necessarily mean that it's feasible in the US, just that it is feasible. I wasn't aware that this discussion was about the US alone.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Basic income

                            Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                            Canada also provides low income housing, to an extent. But you're right, it's much smaller (though, larger in size and more culturally diverse in a lot of regions).

                            Anyway, I didn't necessarily mean that it's feasible in the US, just that it is feasible. I wasn't aware that this discussion was about the US alone.

                            It's not, though population needs to be part of this. The size of a population can make a huge difference when having this discussion. This sort of idea can work on a small scale, but when applied to a huge population, things get exponentially more difficult.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Basic income

                              Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                              It's not, though population needs to be part of this. The size of a population can make a huge difference when having this discussion. This sort of idea can work on a small scale, but when applied to a huge population, things get exponentially more difficult.
                              Agreed. That brings a huge set of challenges. Also the way the US is organized makes it a challenge to implement social support at a federal level.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X