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  • Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

    Many organizations that teach Druidry highlight the peaceful nature of a Druid. This is fair enough, but I feel it's at the expense of that streak of ferocity in battle as historically recorded. In one of the books I was reading at the library, (might have been The Ancient Celts by Barry Cuncliffe) the author recounts interaction between a Roman ambassador and a Celtic warrior. The Romans had been helping a people group win skirmishes with the Celts over land. The Celts entreated the Romans to watch a final battle between the two so that they may know that the Celts were the most superior in battle throughout the region. When the Roman asked the Celt what right his people claimed to the land belonging to others, the Celt replied that the right to claim lay in the strength of their arms.

    The Druids of the Celts taught reincarnation to the community as the reality of afterlife. Roman writers attribute the Celtsic warrior's absence of fear of death to this belief.

    To me, this doesn't sound like a people group who love peace. There is an aggression and almost arrogance surrounding the war stories of the Celtic culture. To deny this aspect within Druidry I feel would greatly dishonour the ancestors of that culture. Battle and bravery seem to form part of the Celtic identity.

    So, in modern Druidry we attempt to take the principles of what we know of Celtic culture and apply them to contemporary society. How can the heart of a warrior be displayed in Druidry today?

    For me, I'm not overly aggressive. I don't believe in taking from people just because I can. The warrior in me is more of a guardian.

    So, how would you display warriorship in your day-to-day as a druid? What do you find yourself battling and how do you fight back? What principles do you stand for and what is your reaction when these are violated?

  • #2
    Re: Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

    Not a member of the Celtic pathways but your analogy seems about as correct as comparing a midevil knight to the clergy in regards to how things relate and trying to justify the knight should be peaceful because of it. The clergy person is peaceful and is a member of the society but is not a member of the Knighthood. Thus the combatant aspect of one calling within the group is not reflective of how another aspect should work.

    Your trying to compare a Celtic warrior and that mindset and cultural norm to a Druid function that was usually either spiritual and / or legal in application. They do not compare nor does the practice of one carry over or influence the practice of the other.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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    • #3
      Re: Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

      Thank you for your thoughts, Monsno Leedra.

      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
      * They do not compare nor does the practice of one carry over or influence the practice of the other.
      I see what you're saying and I've thought about this, too.

      From what I've read so far, Modern Druidry goes deeper than function of the ancient Druids, it draws from Celtic culture as a whole.

      To separate the function of Druid from cultural context renders it impotent. Without the context, the function is meaningless. War was a reality of the Celts. How much of Druidic philosophy influenced and was influenced by this? We already know that teachings on afterlife greatly affected the warrior's approach to battle. There are gods within the Celtic culture that are identified with war. I think the Morrigan is one of these? I am currently reading a myth that is set in battle.

      In the teaching materials and discussions presented to me so far, the peaceful aspect of Druidry/Druidism is heavily emphasised. I don't think that approach is wrong, but I don't think it captures the fullness of the culture of the day in which we are drawing from.

      It's totally possible I've got a misconstrued idea of what Druidry is supposed to be. I've been reading and joining in on discussions for just under a year now. I've a lot more learning to do.

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      • #4
        Re: Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

        Not a member of the Celtic pathways but your analogy seems about as correct as comparing a midevil knight to the clergy in regards to how things relate and trying to justify the knight should be peaceful because of it. The clergy person is peaceful and is a member of the society but is not a member of the Knighthood. Thus the combatant aspect of one calling within the group is not reflective of how another aspect should work.
        But even in that example, the medieval clergy often served the purpose of enabling the violence of the knights and warriors, promising them that God would support their cause, that they wouldn't go to hell for fighting 'holy' wars, and in turn the knight supports the clergyman, doing the fighting so that he doesn't have to defend himself personally. It's an almost symbiotic relationship, which I think is what Azvanna is saying about the druids, that even if they were individually peaceful, they still supported and encouraged violence in others, and benefited from that violence.

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        • #5
          Re: Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

          Originally posted by Aeran View Post
          But even in that example, the medieval clergy often served the purpose of enabling the violence of the knights and warriors, promising them that God would support their cause, that they wouldn't go to hell for fighting 'holy' wars, and in turn the knight supports the clergyman, doing the fighting so that he doesn't have to defend himself personally. It's an almost symbiotic relationship, which I think is what Azvanna is saying about the druids, that even if they were individually peaceful, they still supported and encouraged violence in others, and benefited from that violence.
          But it is still a separation of class and purpose. That they held a symbiotic relationship on the large scale doesn't mean the clergy outside of some military orders was seen as the same. That one supports the other does not or should not suggest in my mind that they be compared together. A Celtic warrior was just that, a warrior who fought. A Druid was a judge / lawyer or some form of religious leader. The closest logical equation I can think of is the relationship between the spiritual leaders of a nation (think of Sitting Bull for instance) and the warriors of a nation (think of Crazy Horse) who actually fight. They support each other but each also had a clearly defined role in society.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
          Thank you for your thoughts, Monsno Leedra.
          Your welcome.

          From what I've read so far, Modern Druidry goes deeper than function of the ancient Druids, it draws from Celtic culture as a whole.
          I can't answer that other than limited interaction. Yet those have been about re-discovering the spiritual / religious aspects of the culture from that perspective not trying to reclaim or make Druidry a reflection of Celtic social structure as a whole.

          To separate the function of Druid from cultural context renders it impotent. Without the context, the function is meaningless. War was a reality of the Celts. How much of Druidic philosophy influenced and was influenced by this? We already know that teachings on afterlife greatly affected the warrior's approach to battle. There are gods within the Celtic culture that are identified with war. I think the Morrigan is one of these? I am currently reading a myth that is set in battle.
          That I think is the difficulty of saying "Celtic" as a ethnic or social group considering "Celtic" is a language group. As such there are many assumptions being made about what a thing meant to the "Celts" with much of it based upon Irish Celtic history not the history of the various groups that were identified beneath the Celtic language grouping. It's like Cernunnos is only found in one place from what I recall and everything else associating him to Celtic beliefs is assumption without actual physical or mythological support. Brythonic Celtic history in southern England is quite different from Celtic myth in Ireland which is still different than that from mainland Europe. Even the limited info found in Roman writings suggests a number of differences between the various groupings and those that aligned with Rome and those against it.

          In the teaching materials and discussions presented to me so far, the peaceful aspect of Druidry/Druidism is heavily emphasised. I don't think that approach is wrong, but I don't think it captures the fullness of the culture of the day in which we are drawing from.
          Where there an actual defined "Celtic" culture then that statement might be correct yet the Celts in many ways probably could be compared to the many nations that make up the Native American nations. Many various groups that speak a similar based language (granted difference between P and Q Language) and are associated by that similarity vice their actual cultural, social, historical, ethical values and who they lived.

          It's totally possible I've got a misconstrued idea of what Druidry is supposed to be. I've been reading and joining in on discussions for just under a year now. I've a lot more learning to do.
          I couldn't even speak on that aspect.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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          • #6
            Re: Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

            Originally posted by Aeran View Post
            But even in that example, the medieval clergy often served the purpose of enabling the violence of the knights and warriors, promising them that God would support their cause, that they wouldn't go to hell for fighting 'holy' wars, and in turn the knight supports the clergyman, doing the fighting so that he doesn't have to defend himself personally. It's an almost symbiotic relationship, which I think is what Azvanna is saying about the druids, that even if they were individually peaceful, they still supported and encouraged violence in others, and benefited from that violence.
            This is pretty much where I'm coming from. I don't think religion and politics evolve independently. Symbiotic is a great word to describe the relationship between politics and religion, and both are inspired by and in turn influence human experience.
            The emergence of deities of war, the way warriors are bolstered in courage when they know they cannot truly die, the offering up of unused ornamental weapons... What are these if not a product of the relationship between religion and war?

            I acknowledge the role of Druid and warrior are different, but we agree when you say
            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
            .They support each other but each also had a clearly defined role in society.

            - - - Updated - - -




            I can't answer that other than limited interaction. Yet those have been about re-discovering the spiritual / religious aspects of the culture from that perspective not trying to reclaim or make Druidry a reflection of Celtic social structure as a whole.
            I think you misunderstood me. It's not my intention to support the restructuring of the diversity of the Celtic culture within a single person. War (and peace) do feature in Celtic myths and are reflected in the characteristics of some deities. This is an aspect of the spirituality that isn't much discussed.

            Another heading for the discussion could be: Celtic war deities and their myths: what can they bring to the modern druid?

            Many of us won't experience the effects of modern warfare first-hand let alone war as the ancient Celts knew it. Does this mean that those myths and deities are now bereft of meaning? How can these religious views be reinterpreted by the modern druid?

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            • #7
              Re: Druidry and the Warrior's Spirit Discussion

              I think that what this topic is touching on is an example of a big issue that affect both modern Druidry and other modern Pagan religions; too many "clergy" and no "laity".

              Given the current disposition of modern Druidry (no community to minister to, adjudicate for, bless, sing about, nor divine for) I'm not certain that it's possible for a modern Druid to incorporate some those historical aspects of a Druid's duties.

              That said, a notable exception are a handful of Celtic-Reconstructionist families I've heard of that are actually coming together in real life. They live communally and solve disputes with Brehon law. Their day jobs include things like ems, police, army, teaching, skilled tradesmen, and farming. So right within that list you've got a modern version of a Celtic culture cross section (healers, warriors, teachers, and craftsmen). With a setup like this a modern Druid wouldn't need embody the diversity of Celtic culture, they can take on a more traditional of working with the warriors or craftsmen while still remaining separate.
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