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Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

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    Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

    Got your attention?
    Among most other pagans I know (from numerous traditions), there's a heavy aversion to sex ritual, sexual magic, and, to an extent, even nude ritual. Among the groups that I know personally, this resistance comes strongest from Wicca, which is understandable considering the stereotypes.

    But I'm curious, in a case where the tradition legitimately calls for it, what do you guys think of sex ritual? Is there a divide between private and "public" (i.e. before your group, coven, etc.) ritual? Physically performed heiros gamos (divine marriage)? What about orgiastic ritual? Sex magic? Or what about the calmest of the group (which tends to get lumped in by outsiders), nude ritual? How does your tradition handle it?


    I'm curious primarily because my tradition in it's ancient form included sex ritual (including orgiastic holidays). Since we're doing a reconstruction/revival, we've been questioning this as a modern ritual and whether it has any place in modern religion. We've got three main views in the group with no real consensus:
    1. Among those who feel it should not be included, the primary argument is that it is archaic, taboo in the west, and strongly stigmatized in the larger pagan community. Most of this group is also against nude ritual to a greater or lesser extent.
    2. Among those who argue for it to not be eliminated (though not necessarily "encouraged"), the argument is that if we eliminate things because they are "archaic" or "taboo in the west," that we would have no religion left after the editing process.
    3. And among those who are for its complete inclusion, the argument is that it is a valid part of our tradition and cultural heritage, and that, in many cases, it is so central to certain rituals that we would completely neuter our religion with its complete removal.

    Obviously, no matter what it decided, it would be an optional and voluntary ritual solely between (and/or witnessed by) consenting adults (as defined by state and national laws). So what do you guys think?

    Thanks in advance for the help. This one has been giving me (literal) headaches for months.
    ʼŌraḥ Qaḏəmōnī, a revival of Ancient Israelite religion -- PathOfAncients.org

    #2
    Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

    I generally don't have a problem with it, as long as all parties involved are consenting adults. However, it is very vulnerable to exploitation and ulterior motives, and so there needs to be a lot of care taken.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

      Originally posted by Orecha View Post
      Got your attention?
      Among most other pagans I know (from numerous traditions), there's a heavy aversion to sex ritual, sexual magic, and, to an extent, even nude ritual. Among the groups that I know personally, this resistance comes strongest from Wicca, which is understandable considering the stereotypes.
      You've been hanging out with the wrong Pagans Most of my extended circle of acquaintances are all up into nudity & sex magic, including my Wiccan friends. They've got no beef with Gardner's methodology at all. The whole cup-and-dagger replacement for the Great Rite doesn't sit well with them at all - it's gotta be the real thing. Of course, most of my extended acquaintances (and myself with my husband) are adults in relationships of one variety or another, so that may be part of why we whole-heartedly embrace it. As long as it's among consenting, non-seriously-intoxicated adults, anything goes. And of course, no means no.

      I've been to nude and clothing-optional rituals that were not aimed at becoming sex rituals, too. You just have to make sure everyone knows the house rules. Generally speaking, if it was a public ritual being held anywhere outside of a nudist colony or nude beach, clothes were on & there were no public sexy fun times. If there were minors involved at all, clothes were on & there was seriously no sexy fun times or even much R-rated language or bawdy humor. I'm not one to judge people who practice nudity around or with their kids, but if there's going to be some kind of noisy potentially-attention-attracting-gathering, no one wants to go to jail, no one wants anyone to feel uncomfortable or put-off, and no one wants to end up getting the local Child Protective Services called by an unwitting neighbor. Especially because a lot of people still fully believe that Pagans are all cultists who engage in ritualized child abuse.
      The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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        #4
        Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

        I know I have done nude ritual and sex magic, but only in private with a single person. I know I would definitely not be awesome with group nudity. It's not a matter of being prudish, but I have a very temple/private idea about my body. I don't think just anyone gets the privilege.

        And a lot of people are uncomfortable with the way their body looks etc. Though it was very liberating for me to get to know my body doing nude ritual, adding other people would add a level of discomfort that for me would totally detract from any spiritual effects. For me, rituals are just an external way to get into a different internal mindset, that distraction would be an immersion breaker.

        However, if all involved are honestly okay with it and don't feel pressured into it (like if anyone isn't all gung-ho about it, if you 'convince' them, they've been pressured...as someone who's often been put in that situation, trust me, they will be unhappy.) then its fine. Perhaps its something you need to add to your tradition as an optional practice.

        Usually nudity is about baring yourself without trappings to your deity. Just wearing plain, rough spun unadorned clothing can do the same. Sex magic is a bout pleasure and fertility, but there are other ways to go about expressing those too. So from a spiritual standpoint, there's no real reason to add it unless it legitimately makes it easier for you to get into the right mindset.

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          #5
          Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

          Sex magic isn't only about pleasure and fertility. It's about building energy to a crescendo, then releasing that energy focused onto your goal.
          I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

          Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
          Clan of my Clan
          Kin of my Kin
          Blood of my Blood



          For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
          And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

            Originally posted by Rick View Post
            Sex magic isn't only about pleasure and fertility. It's about building energy to a crescendo, then releasing that energy focused onto your goal.
            Exactly! It's a good alternative for those of us who can't dance.
            The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

              Originally posted by Rick View Post
              Sex magic isn't only about pleasure and fertility. It's about building energy to a crescendo, then releasing that energy focused onto your goal.
              I guess I am more prudish than I thought. Since that's what SEX is about usually (at least for me I guess) (pleasure, fertility/reproduction (sometimes), intimacy) I can't imagine those not being involved with magic using sex.

              I mean, to be frank, unless you both climax simultaneously, wouldn't your spell go off half-cocked?

              Seems...inconsistent, at least for anything I would want to do. I'd make a lousy sex magic partner, methinks.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                I guess I am more prudish than I thought. Since that's what SEX is about usually (at least for me I guess) (pleasure, fertility/reproduction (sometimes), intimacy) I can't imagine those not being involved with magic using sex.

                I mean, to be frank, unless you both climax simultaneously, wouldn't your spell go off half-cocked?

                Seems...inconsistent, at least for anything I would want to do. I'd make a lousy sex magic partner, methinks.
                Hehehe... Rowan, one doesn't necessarily need a partner to perform sex magic. If the goal is magic, a partner can be distracting. On the occasions I've done sex magic with a partner, one of us took the lead and dictated the pace. Simultaneous climax is ideal, but I've found that close works almost as well. Sex magic can be pleasurable, but sometimes sorta isn't. Sex for pleasure, reproduction, and/or intimacy can seem magical, but if the intent isn't sex magic then it's sex, not magic. (I hope that makes sense, it sounded different in my head than when I read it).
                I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                Clan of my Clan
                Kin of my Kin
                Blood of my Blood



                For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                  Originally posted by Rick View Post
                  Hehehe... Rowan, one doesn't necessarily need a partner to perform sex magic. If the goal is magic, a partner can be distracting. On the occasions I've done sex magic with a partner, one of us took the lead and dictated the pace. Simultaneous climax is ideal, but I've found that close works almost as well. Sex magic can be pleasurable, but sometimes sorta isn't. Sex for pleasure, reproduction, and/or intimacy can seem magical, but if the intent isn't sex magic then it's sex, not magic. (I hope that makes sense, it sounded different in my head than when I read it).
                  It makes sense, but I guess I don't get why anyone would use it then, outside of sex magic specifically related to sex and the relationship of the people involved. And I also get the solo sex magic thing, but maybe I just have too much sympathetic magic background, but it would throw off my stride if I was say, doing magic to get a new job via furious masturbation. I'm pretty sure my build up of energy would send my mind firmly away from the magical working and back to the task at hand, as it were.


                  There really is no way to discuss this without the puns, is there?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                    Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
                    It makes sense, but I guess I don't get why anyone would use it then, outside of sex magic specifically related to sex and the relationship of the people involved. And I also get the solo sex magic thing, but maybe I just have too much sympathetic magic background, but it would throw off my stride if I was say, doing magic to get a new job via furious masturbation. I'm pretty sure my build up of energy would send my mind firmly away from the magical working and back to the task at hand, as it were.


                    There really is no way to discuss this without the puns, is there?
                    Not really, no...

                    Everybody can't do all types of magic; there are a few I've mastered (as much as anyone ever really masters magic), some I do OK at, and some I will never attempt. Sex magic is just another way to raise energy, little different from dancing (thanks, Perzephone), chanting, drumming, etc. I think everyone who wishes to should try it, but I doubt everyone will get the same result. Such is life.
                    I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                    Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                    Clan of my Clan
                    Kin of my Kin
                    Blood of my Blood



                    For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                    And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                      Originally posted by Rick View Post
                      Not really, no...

                      Everybody can't do all types of magic; there are a few I've mastered (as much as anyone ever really masters magic), some I do OK at, and some I will never attempt. Sex magic is just another way to raise energy, little different from dancing (thanks, Perzephone), chanting, drumming, etc. I think everyone who wishes to should try it, but I doubt everyone will get the same result. Such is life.
                      That makes perfect sense.

                      Back to the primary question though? If people are hesitant, in a group, I would think it would have to be a no or you have to accept losing those members. Clearly, I'd be running for the hills. That doesn't mean it has no place in your faith -- if you have a specific group like those Perz works with and everyone is on board for naked time, it sounds like it can be very effective.

                      Despite my weirdness, I don't see why sex magic and nudity wouldn't have a place in a religion. Clearly it does, but it just has to have the right audience. But there is something to consider if you are trying to go mainstream. I think ritual nudity definitely colors the impression an outsider has a group, no matter how open minded. Are you looking for a practice that is for only your own benefit? Then who cares? But if you are looking to open a temple? That would change things. Like Medusa said when discussing satanism; there's baggage; you need to decide if you want to carry it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                        When reconstructing an ancient religion, we have to take a close look at each thing we want to reconstruct and ask, "is this truly relevant? Is there another, more modern, way to do this? Can we safely leave this thing out and what does that mean for our religion if we do? Can we modify this thing, keep the context that makes it sacred, and go forward with it that way?" And there are certainly other questions to ask.

                        In traditions that legitimately call for it, I think it needs to be decided on a group by group, person by person basis. I would personally hesitate throwing out some of a tradition's rituals just because they include sex.

                        Everyone involved with such a ritual should be adults and have the ability to give true consent. Nobody should be pressured into doing it, nor should anybody be accused of not being a "true X" if they won't go along with the program.

                        Anyway, I'm more of a celibate monastic-ish type. Nudity, sex magic, etc. doesn't fit in with what I do. So I can't comment beyond what I've already said. XD
                        Blog: http://thestarsafire.tumblr.com

                        Kuchi wa wazawai no moto (the mouth is the origin of disasters)

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                          #13
                          Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                          Speaking for myself here...my "problem" with sex in ritual isn't the sex or the ritual, but the potential for exploitation. I, personally, would not be comfortable in a religion where sex magic or ritual sex with others was a routine part of practice. For me, as a rape victim, it would be deeply uncomfortable in a way that would not be beneficial to myself or the group. I do, however, think that having a fully optional and supplemental sex ritual format/liturgy/whatever for persons to engage in alone, with their partner privately, or in a group with other consenting adults is something that has its role in any ecstatic experience.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                            The Satanic Bible has a whole chapter on sex rituals. Its quite fun.
                            Satan is my spirit animal

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                              #15
                              Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

                              Originally posted by Orecha View Post
                              this resistance comes strongest from Wicca, which is understandable considering the stereotypes
                              I think it's in large part because one of the more recent waves of practitioners had a hard time letting go of the culture they came from, i.e. Christian and conservative America of the late 1990s and early 2000s. From what I've seen at least. As well, the books around that time seem to de-emphasise sex and death, which were normally big parts of Wiccan ritual and myth.

                              what do you guys think of sex ritual?
                              I don't mind it. I've done it before, and it's powerful. Sexuality is a basic part of humanity and nature, and I think it's completely appropriate to celebrate it in religious and/or magical rituals. And it's a powerful tool to use in practical magic.

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