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    Arming teachers in Utah

    I've gotta stop watching ACA, it's so crappy. But I learnt this, and it's closer to home for most of you!

    Gun group gives free training to Utah teachers arming themselves

    Thoughts? Is this actually necessary? Or is it a massive overreaction?

    As a teacher myself, I would do anything to protect my students. But I don't believe in arming myself with a concealed weapon is going to save their lives in the unlikely event that a mad man entered my classroom.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
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    Revolting with anger
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    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

    #2
    Re: Arming teachers in Utah

    Absurd, dangerous and counterproductive.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Arming teachers in Utah

      "More guns is more better" is the unofficial motto of the US, so it doesn't really surprise me. Neither does the fact that this is coming from the bible belt.

      These people are going about this the wrong way, adding more guns to the situation is like throwing gas on the fire. If you want less crazed gunmen, you need either less guns or less crazy people. People don't like that fact, because it's difficult to resolve. It requires massive reform and even then you can't stop it all.

      Giving teachers guns is easy and makes people feel better. Though imagine a teacher being caught with a gun before Columbine, pretty much everyone would rightfully call that teacher a nutjob even if they claimed to have it for protecting students.
      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Arming teachers in Utah

        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
        Absurd, dangerous and counterproductive.
        How so?

        Someone properly trained with a gun can save a lot of lives if a person malicious intent appears and tries to hurt people.





        Cars kill more people than guns, but no one is complaining about crossing guards.




        We need to address the mental health issues. We have a worse time with that than with guns. There's so much social stigma about "being crazy" that people are not getting the help they need until its too late. Healthy people don't just go around murdering people, guns or no guns. There have been school killings in other parts of the world with bombs and knifes when guns weren't available. It didn't change a damn thing. But if someone who wanted to protect those kids was armed? Well, that MAY have.

        I'd buy the teacher a gun and the training myself if I could to protect my kid.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Arming teachers in Utah

          Teachers here in my town are armed. We actually were written about in the New York Times a while back because of it. Everybody here is armed.....kids go hunting at age 6 or so to get their first deer/turkey. Crime? Overdue library books, leaving gas stations without paying, drug stuff, and some domestic stuff like anywhere else. I've been here almost 5 years and know of 2 murders, neither of which involved guns. Once in a while people steal stuff out of unlocked cars, etc. This is usually related to the drug crap.

          When I went to my first gun show here, I was SHOCKED that people could buy guns and ammo together. I said to my friend "They could go to their car, load up, and come back in here blazing" and he said "You could not be in a safer place - they wouldn't make it through the door and everybody knows it, so no one would do such a thing".

          What concerns me about other places arming teachers is the lack of common gun sense/experience in those places. You'd have to worry about some kid trying to steal the gun, etc. Here it's so ordinary no one looks at you funny if you're wearing a holstered gun in Walmart.
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          Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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            #6
            Re: Arming teachers in Utah

            Originally posted by Hawkfeathers View Post
            Teachers here in my town are armed. We actually were written about in the New York Times a while back because of it. Everybody here is armed.....kids go hunting at age 6 or so to get their first deer/turkey. Crime? Overdue library books, leaving gas stations without paying, drug stuff, and some domestic stuff like anywhere else. I've been here almost 5 years and know of 2 murders, neither of which involved guns. Once in a while people steal stuff out of unlocked cars, etc. This is usually related to the drug crap.

            When I went to my first gun show here, I was SHOCKED that people could buy guns and ammo together. I said to my friend "They could go to their car, load up, and come back in here blazing" and he said "You could not be in a safer place - they wouldn't make it through the door and everybody knows it, so no one would do such a thing".

            What concerns me about other places arming teachers is the lack of common gun sense/experience in those places. You'd have to worry about some kid trying to steal the gun, etc. Here it's so ordinary no one looks at you funny if you're wearing a holstered gun in Walmart.
            I'm moving to you right now.

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              #7
              Re: Arming teachers in Utah

              Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
              I'm moving to you right now.
              It's an odd little place, here!! Has its ups & downs.
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              Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                #8
                Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                How so?

                Someone properly trained with a gun can save a lot of lives if a person malicious intent appears and tries to hurt people.
                Teachers are just as prone to thoughtlessness, carelessness, mental illness, etc. as the rest of the human population. And having a ton of guns lying around in a school environment is pure insanity. How long do you think it'll be till the first kid dead from an accidental discharge, or from kids playing with or using a gun the teacher left in their desk, or a teacher flipping out, or getting paranoid because they think the candybar the token angry goth kid is pulling out of his pocket is actually a weapon? The idea that giving more people guns will result in less gun deaths is an absurd fantasy born out of the twisted fixation American culture has with firearms.

                Hell, as far as I can tell even most cops agree that giving civilians weapons so they can use violent situations as a chance to play out their Rambo fantasies just creates more danger.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                  I like having armed responders in schools. I don't particularly like making teachers the armed responders in question but my preferred answer costs money and I doubt Utah would spring for the bill. Shrug, we'll see how it goes.
                  life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                  Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                  "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                  John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                  "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                  Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                    #10
                    Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                    I have doubts about arming teachers who were not previously armed. That's what makes it different here - gun handling is taught around the same time as walking/talking.
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                    Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                      #11
                      Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                      ^ Yeah the money is the issue. If we were talking a single highly trained security worker, I could possibly get behind it depending on implementation, but having dozens of random teachers wandering around with guns is a disaster waiting to happen.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                        My preferred answer is a little pricier than that. Most schools that I've dealt with have internal cameras monitoring halls already. Put together a reliable and quiet (not the damn intercom) method of internal communication, add a permanent monitor for those cameras in an out of the way, unmarked and locked room and two security officers. In event of crisis, the monitor guy has three jobs.

                        1) Direct teachers and staff to either hide or evacuate depending on where exactly the gunner is.

                        2) Tell your security people where the threat is, who it is and how many are involved.

                        3) Coordinate with incoming law enforcement.

                        Depending on local culture, teachers with guns outside a crisis doesn't overly concern me. Some regions it'll work, some it should never be considered. I don't know Utah well enough to comment on where it falls. My larger problem is that if the teachers actually need to use their weapons, they are now in a chaotic environment with a lot of people to keep track of, limited information about what's going on and inadequate preparation. Use teachers to keep kids out of the threat zones and use either school resource officers or armed security guards to handle the shooter. The only way I see armed teachers working well in a crisis if their orders basically amount to

                        1) lock the door
                        2) kill the lights
                        3) get your class low to the ground and silent
                        4) if the door is opened before an announcement is made that the threat is over then shoot the person on the other side until dead and close the door again.

                        teachers attempting to locate and neutralize a threat, no, just no. They aren't trained or equipped for that role.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                          I'm in agreement with Masked. And having precautions like this in place is expensive, especially up front during the installation and fine tuning, but working in that type of industry (security/access control/fire alarm) I can say that lots of schools are already going this way. Older schools are being retro'ed to bring them up to modern standards (around here, anyway) and in some cases, schools are being entirely demolished and rebuilt with modern building codes and proper security control. I would most certainly support the idea of teachers undergoing an annual training to be prepared for a Shooter On Campus scenario and what to do, where to go, etc. Communication is entirely the key! Teachers need to be notified immediately of a threat in the school, regardless of whether they are right next door or on the opposite side of the school.
                          �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
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                            #14
                            Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                            Bad idea.

                            Teachers are not trained cops, or trained military.

                            In a mess up, expect them to behave just like you would - panic.

                            Either they will shoot when they shouldn't, or not shoot when they should.

                            If you want armed guards in schools, get professionals. Stop expecting teachers to save the world from itself.

                            We got too much crap to deal with already.

                            You really want ME wandering around a school with a gun? If so, you're dumber than you look (not directed at anybody in particular...).

                            P.S. We have a plan in place. I'm not allowed to give details, but it is similar to what Masked suggests - get the kids to safety, and duck while the highly trained professionals do what they have been highly trained to do.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Arming teachers in Utah

                              Ever wonder why nut jobs don't shoot up places in states with concealed carry? No, I don't wonder, either.
                              I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

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                              For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                              And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

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