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    an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

    Merry meet ) o (
    Im considering the phrase "an it harm none " And its correlation to food.
    Due to a medical condition, I find it harder to chew and thus prefer soft foods. This means I am not the biggest fan of meat the only meats I eat are chicken and turkey. I do like fish (yes, I know fish counts as meat , but just as an explanation aid im doing them separately.
    But I know that I don't have it in me to kill an animal. Not for food, not for anything, so why should I eat it?
    Not to mention that our bodies ,(at least from my reading on the topic) don't seem to be designed to eat meat or dairy products. The exclusion of both these things from the diet is veganism.
    Which imho at this moment , cause a the least harm to anything and everything. I still want to study it properly ,meditate on it and make sure I have all the information but I am considering becoming vegan.
    Are you vegetarian/vegan? Or do you eat meat.? Opinions please
    Merry part )o(
    33
    I'm a vegetarian.
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    I'm a vegan.
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    I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian.
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    I'm an omnivore.
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    25
    I only eat meat.
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    I do something else that is complicated.
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    #2
    Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

    When you eat plants they die.
    When you take a shower you kill millions of bacteria on your body.

    I've had serious desires to hunt and kill deer with just my teeth, RAWR.


    In all seriousness, try vegan, you'll probably quit after a while due to lack of energy and the weekly grocery bill.
    I don't get the whole no meat thing. I tried the vegetarian thing, and it just sucked.

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      #3
      Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

      Only way to harm none is to be dead. You are part of the living world. Eat the foods you like to eat.
      Satan is my spirit animal

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        #4
        Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

        I like meat, therefore I eat it.

        Sorry. No deep philosophy.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

          I think it's important to respect that everything we consume came from a living thing of some sort and that producing it involves resources. That being said, I don't think you have to be vegetarian (unless you want to).

          I'm a bit biased because I have allergies that prevent me from going veggie (and especially vegan), so I have to reconcile my views with my own health. I try not to waste things, try not to overconsume, and I try to make choices that have less impact on the environment.

          As for killing, I can and have. I used to fish occasionally when I was growing up. I don't know how I'd feel about killing a rabbit, deer, or cow though. I could probably do it if it was far away. Still, the fish wasn't all that bad. As long as it's quick.

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            #6
            Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

            I'm probably not the best person to offer an opinion on this, because A) I don't believe in 'harm none' in the first place, and B) I don't believe that 'harm none' has any business being tied to vegetarianism or veganism. We harm things every day, as the others have pointed out. Our very existence and movement in this world causes the death of thousands of organisms, let alone when you take into account the living things that we willfully kill.

            I don't believe that is wrong to kill things for the betterment of our safety and wellbeing. But I also believe that there is not that much difference in morality between killing a cow and killing a pathogen or an insect. All life is sacred to me, but a part of that sacredness is it's place within the cycle of things, and death is just as sacred to me as life. So to me, being vegan from some sense of morality about not causing harm to animals makes very little sense... because you are still killing plants and other living things.

            And quite aside from that, I dislike the picking and choosing of what products to abstain from... it's relatively easy to cut meat out of the diet, but what of the animal products that are in everything else? If you really wish to cut out all things that are obtained via the death of an animal, you must also look at soaps, detergents, make up, buttons, fabrics, deserts... you'd be surprised exactly what things contain animal products. Factor into that the environmental ramifications of the mass production of just about everything that we utilise in modern society and the morality of consumerism becomes very complicated.

            I am not against vegetarianism or veganism. I think that some people can live very healthy and fulfilling lives within those lifestyles. But if morality and 'harm none' is your reason for looking into those lifestyles then please do some research into the wider picture. And if you do decide that is road that you want to take, also consider products other than food. It's true that we can only do so much... but I find it a little hypocritical when I meet a vegan who shuns meat and dairy but uses shampoo and makeup that not only contains animal products, but is tested on animals. Alternatives to these products are readily available if you know where to look.

            And remember too that sometimes 'harm' needs to be prioritised. If you can't cut out ALL products that contain animal products or are tested on animals, then learn about the conditions and slaughtering of those animals and make informed decisions. Because the reality is that milk from a local small dairy or eggs from free range chooks cause less 'harm' than a commercial soap containing animal byproducts.

            Personally, my consumerism decisions are not about whether something is killed, but things like how it lived and how it was killed, what impact the production has on the environment, what impact the waste will have on the environment, and whether something is local or endemic. Free range and grass fed are two things that are particularly important to me, as well as local and in-season. I chose soaps and detergents that are grey water safe and don't harm aquatic life (which a surprising number of them do). And I look for things that are Australian owned (or whatever country you are in), recycled or recyclable, and endorsed by environmental protection agencies. Even simple things like the brand of tissues that you use can have ramifications for a 'harm none' morality.

            The key is to educate yourself and make informed decisions rather than jump on a bandwagon without digging into the nuts and bolts of things. Then figure out what your moral priorities are and create a hierarchy of importance for everything that you use in order to facilitate those decisions.

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              #7
              Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

              We're omnivores, we eat whatever we can get our hands on. That's how we as humans have been since the very beginning, it's only relatively recently that we have the medical and agricultural knowledge and capacity to facilitate such an unnatural diet.

              If you feel the need to do such a thing, that's your business. If I had trouble with chewing meat, I'd just eat soft meat... which is easy enough to get ahold of.

              I do not consider eating meat to be unethical in and of itself, nor do I consider killing animals for their meat unethical. As long as the animal's death, and life in the case of farmed animals, was handled humanely. Which, given the state of the meat industry, is hideously unlikely.

              It's not like the agriculture industry is without fault either. We need to manage our food better. Production and distribution especially. That is a grand societal problem, our individual diets don't matter one whit in terms of changing that. We, as a whole, are in the wrong for allowing it.

              I'd be fine with a mostly vegetarian diet, I wouldn't mind terribly if most of my meals didn't have meat in it. As in only on special occasion or for a treat and the like. The only reason I haven't, is that I just couldn't be bothered.

              Once I move off the rez, hopefully to someplace where the nearest market isn't forty miles away, I'll have to try that. Hopefully it'll force some variety into my eating habits.
              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                #8
                Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                You said it so much better Rae'ya...totally agree!

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                  #9
                  Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                  Wow , thank you so much for your replies.
                  To answer a few points raised :
                  1) if I did decide to go vegan , of course I would apply this theology to all parts of my life. It would be hypocritical to not apply it.of course I would look into all sides of the argument.
                  2) it was actually very interesting to hear all your perspectives on this topic. Whilst I disagree with some points, I greatly appreciate that you took the time to answer. Becoming part of this forum has opened my eyes to many different perspectives within the pagan and even non pagan community. I hope to learn more .
                  3) as in nature , there is ALWAYS and imbalance , however slight it may be"harm none" (which is a concept.i know not everyone agrees with) means trying to cause as little harm as is possible. And also that this harm is unintentional.
                  Anyway. Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply
                  Blessed be ) o (

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                    #10
                    Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                    Originally posted by unityquest

                    Not to mention that our bodies ,(at least from my reading on the topic) don't seem to be designed to eat meat or dairy products. The exclusion of both these things from the diet is veganism.
                    We are omnivorous mammals, so this statement is not entirely true.


                    To be perfectly honest, all things live and all things die. Nature is an incredible killer of things. Not killing things is in itself unnatural. I am not saying kill things because it's fun, because it's not. But I have never felt as though the concept of " 'an it harm none", was entirely feasible. What happens when harming someone prevents harm to thousands more? Again personal opinion, but food choices which are natural to humans include a variety of nuts, grains and MEAT. Seriously, those sharp teeth in your mouth? Evolved for the tearing of meat, I meantion it because it is something you can clearly see by looking into the mirror and opening your mouth, they are essentially meat teeth. People are supposed to have meat, its part of our evolution. Hunters and gatherers hunted as well as gathered. Not eating meat is unnatural... Im not saying that if you don't want to eat meat you are wrong, but make sure your reasons for making such a decision are based off of facts rather than just google....
                    http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                    But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                    ~Jim Butcher

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                      #11
                      Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                      As others have already summed up, I don't think there's a huge moral aspect to it either way - while I hate the thought of supporting the vile practices of the meat industry, the truth is that basically every industry that supports our modern, 21st century lifestyle involves vile practices which perpetuate pain, destruction and suffering. The meat thing in particular is such a tiny drop in the ocean of that.

                      That said, I think there are some fairly sound arguments to be made for giving up, or reducing the consumption of, meat (red meat especially) from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view. I personally don't think I could ever go vegetarian, meat is such a hugely integral part of my diet, but I would like to reduce my consumption of it and to balance it out with more fruit and vegetables.

                      On the flip side, I could never do the killing first hand. Hell, I even go to the effort of using plastic containers to relocate spiders instead of killing them, and I loath spiders beyond any level of reason. The thought of actually killing a cow or a chicken or whatever makes me feel horrible - hell, even stopping and thinking 'this food was a living animal, and someone slaughtered it so I can eat it' makes me uncomfortable, so maybe I'm just rationalizing because it's easy to ignore the fact that the stuff in the pie used to be a living, breathing creature. Bears some thinking about.
                      Last edited by Aeran; 30 Jan 2014, 11:07.

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                        #12
                        Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                        I'm an omnivore. I buy my meat and fish (as well as veggies and fruits, when they are in season) from local farmers and fishermen (hey, I live by the sea), when I can (from March to October @ the farmers market) and (hopefully) buy enough to last November-February (but if not, I'm not adverse to buying as ethically sourced meat as possible to tide us over). I'm even known to forage for some of our foods when they are in season--mostly herbs, but also paw paw, berries, and things of that nature. We don't eat that much meat anyhow--maybe chicken once or twice a week, fish once or twice a week, and maybe pork once or twice a month (hubby likes bacon and I like breakfast sausages), and perhaps red meat every now and again...but almost never as the centerpiece of a meal and more like a condiment or a side dish. We do eat eggs and cheese and yogurt with some regularity...so we probably consume an animal product on a daily basis. I might also add that I don't think one has to kill an animal to appreciate the depth and significance of its death--I don't need to rebuild my car's engine to appreciate the work of my mechanic when I'm able to drive to the store. While I have killed animals (science can be harsh), it has always been with respect for that animal's life and with mercy.

                        I don't have any philosophical belief about it. IMO--All life exists upon death. Period. Vegetarians and vegans kill animals with their diet too...they just don't eat them or (hopefully) wear them. Ask any farmer, big farm equipment does some major damage to cute little mice and voles and birds. The chemicals that pour out of fields when it rains kill plenty of macroinvertebrates and fishes in the local streams. And farming is, in and of itself, harmful and disruptive to the native ecosystems farm fields displace. Its not enough to not eat meat if you don't care about where your food is coming from and how it is being raised the rest of the time. And personally, I'd rather help support the local organic or sustainable farmer. Sure, I could do that *and* be a vegetarian...but we also happen to like scallops and chicken and buffalo burgers and the spicy breakfast sausage I can get at the market. And deer, and the occasional steak.

                        I'm an omnivore because that's what how our bodies and our cultures have evolved. Humans (and various ancestors) have long been omnivorous. There is less evidence for humans being plant eaters that the veggie lobby likes to propagate. This whole "designed" to eat this or that is not supported by the science of our evolution. Our ancestors ate whatever they could get their hands on--there's plenty of evidence for meat eating in tool markings and offal piles throughout human history--when something was a commonly available part of the diet and the people thought to eat it, adaptations occurred accordingly based on our natural genetic variation. Those that couldn't hack it, died. Today, less people just die from things like allergies or an inability to digest certain foods because we have better technology in diagnosing and treating these conditions. There is nothing inherently healthy about any diet or food philosophy--it depends on your body, and your individual choices on a daily basis, taken over a lifetime...not on any over arching food rules. Personally, I found being a vegetarian to "work" but being a vegan did not, though over the long term, both left me with certain nutritional needs not adequately met for my personal health concerns.

                        Most importantly to this whole discussion, I think, is this idea that "Harm none" has anything to do with what the Rede says. Its probably one of my biggest pet peeves. You can't live without harm. I don't believe in the "harm none" ethic that the Rede has come to symbolize and, TBH, I don't think that is what the Rede is really saying anyhow. Its certainly not what Gardner intended it to mean. The Rede is a statement on situational ethics and personal responsibility. Its not about trying to adhere to an impossibility of only doing no harm or the least harm, but that...in taking an action we are responsible for analyzing the cost and mitigating it or for making reparations for our individual choices. I sometimes say that I don't follow the Rede (as I haven't considered myself Wiccan in about a decade)...but what is more accurate, is that I don't follow what I consider to be a shallow and easy interpretation of the Rede that lets one feel like a warm and fuzzy martyr. The Wiccan Rede is about the phrasing–”An it harm none”, literally, IF it causes no harm, do what you want. IF it causes no harm, freely indulge in that which brings pleasure and satisfaction! What it does not do is act as a prohibition of harm, rather it asks us to consider the results of our actions (of our whims and pleasures) in expressing our will.

                        I think that what we eat--indeed, the totality of what we do, should be that matter of prioritization and the mitigation of harm or reparation for the cost of the choices we, as individuals make. As long as we are constantly examining what we do, how we do it, why, and what that means on a larger scale, I'm less inclined to care what choices someone else is making (as long as they don't impinge upon my choices). And in that regard, I think eating a ton of processed foods is far worse that eating some meat here and there, in the same way that eating McD's once a month is much better than eating it every day. But, I also believe that taking life is just as sacred as giving it...and if you can't appreciate the former and honor it, that you cannot respect the latter appropriately either. Life is not about equal scales, it is about an equilibrium--a balance in flux. Sometimes we are the eater...and sometimes the eaten (and that doesn't have to be literal)...
                        Last edited by thalassa; 30 Jan 2014, 11:46.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                          #13
                          Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                          I have a vegan friend who made that decision for a range of reasons... and if I wasn't too lazy to actually make the transition, I'd probably work toward at least vegetarianism, because she's made enough good arguments for it that I agree.. I just don't want to do the work.

                          While humans have evolved to be able to eat meat, the necessity of it is highly debatable. My friend has been vegan for about two years now and is one of the healthiest people I know. It's just extremely difficult, especially in our society, to develop a balanced diet without animal product. Also, there's evidence that the human diet was primarily plant-based, through most of our history, that we only ate meat when we could get our hands on it, which wasn't often, and not nearly as often as fruits and vegetables.

                          From a moral standpoint, she views it as the path to least harm. No animals are killed. It's more environmentally friendly. Etc. But, she's put a lot of work into developing her lifestyle to work with this. She's learned the language of food labels well enough to know what to avoid there. I've learned a lot of it because I want to be able to have some options for her to eat when she visits. Chex mix? Out. Even if it doesn't have cheese, because it usually has Worcestershire sauce which has anchovies. Bread? Cookies? Any baked goods? It takes a pretty close examination of the label. It's not just her diet. Not only does she avoid any food with animal byproduct, but anything. At all. She makes her own soap, lotion, etc, from scratch. She doesn't wear any clothing that has animal product (fur, leather, feathers, etc). No leather purses. I was able to sneak in a feather as a gift once because it was from a turkey or some such, and sold at a local pagan store and the owner knew the owner of the turkey which was kept as a pet, and he collected it's dropped feathers to bring to the store.

                          So she goes the whole nine yards. She's done a lot of research. And she considers it the best path, environmentally, morally, health-wise, etc. And generally, I agree with most of what she has to say, it's just pretty damned difficult to actually transition away from meat.
                          We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

                          I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
                          It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
                          Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
                          -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

                          Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

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                            #14
                            Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                            Why not use nature as your guide to 'harm none'. Because just look at nature. It's all so peaceful, right? No. It's balanced when left to its own devices. But that balance means harm comes. Animals eat other animals. Plants over run other plants. Etc etc. Harm none is often mistaken for don't harm a living thing.Ever.
                            Satan is my spirit animal

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                              #15
                              Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                              Originally posted by Hoho View Post
                              In all seriousness, try vegan, you'll probably quit after a while due to lack of energy and the weekly grocery bill.
                              I don't get the whole no meat thing. I tried the vegetarian thing, and it just sucked.
                              I completely disagree with this. I spend less money as a vegetarian, than I did as a meat-eater, and even when I was vegan, I still had lots of energy. I've been vegetarian for several years, and I'm an endurance cyclist, a runner, and a mountaineer. I get plenty of protein from nuts, seeds, eggs, beans and legumes, quinoa, nut butters, and oats. I get plenty of iron from leafy green veggies, and plenty of b-vitamins from fermented foods. My diet is complete. And I am perfectly happy without meat. I don't miss it.


                              Mostly art.

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