Religious Syncronicity...

[Rae'ya]

This came up in another thread (here) and I am interested in taking it further and finding out what others think. The original context was specifically relating to Christianity and Catholicism, but I don't think that we have to restrict ourselves to that alone, as this is something that can be seen across all faiths.

The original post that sparked this off is quoted below...

Christians as a general rule (and in my experience so YMMV) seem to take the idea of collective mind and faith as a giant insult. The idea that your god might be on the same level as their is inherently offensive...considering the whole "thou shalt have no other gods before me" business.

It is honestly the one real beef I still hold for the faith, is this.

Having practiced a wide variety of faiths over the years, and having interacted with many, those true in faith seem to have no issues. I remember reading a story Joseph Campbell told about an interfaith gathering in the 1960s where some Christian Monks and Buddhist monks got together and had no trouble understanding each other...yet those without that total immersion in faith which organized Christianity encourages, makes it a real struggle for a lot of adherents to really get that full body faith to the point where someone else's god no longer threatens them.

It is one perk of many forms of paganism. I'm a priestess, a nun, a monk, and a deity myself. I don't need anyone else to talk to god for me. God is part of me. There's no separation, hence its always a full on, full body experience.

The God of Christianity doesn't threaten me and the faith of his followers doesn't threaten my faith at all. I feel some compassion for those who have to struggle to cling to their beliefs by denigrating those of others, like a awkward school yard bully.

The core concepts that I pull out of this are the idea of being 'true in faith' and how that affects the way that you see other faiths; and the idea that people who denigrate other faiths may have an underlying feeling of being threatened by those other faiths.

Anyone care to discuss?

- - - Updated - - -

Alas... apparently I can't spell 'synchronicity'.

[Medusa]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

As an atheist I see many similarities in faiths. And because I hold that one of them is false, I hold all of them as false I guess. They all seem to be the same story of a false belief. Now that doesn't mean I find them all evil or bad. I find faiths to be what their followers make of them. I'm not threatened by them. But I can understand why people would be. It's a numbers game. As an outsider it does cause a scratch on the head when certain relgious are so closely similar and yet really can't stand each other. I don't get that part.

[Malflick]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

As a Christian, other religions or belief systems don't threaten me.

I grew up very close with a Hindu friend, my sister married a different Hindu, and I'm a Christian dating a Pagan, just to lay that out.

If I was going to try to describe God, I'd describe God as a mirror broken into a million shards, and each religion gets a little glimpse of the whole. Sometimes they see more than others, sometimes the mirror is distorted, but everyone is seeing a part of the same whole, whatever that is.

I believe in God (YHWH) whole heartedly, but I think it would narcissistic and hubristic to say I understood the nature of God. Therefore, who am I to judge other people's religions?

There are so many similarities, large and small, across so many religions, some of them accidental, some of them clearly from appropriation or cross-pollination, it would be silly to disregard them. In fact, I've found them to be a great source of bonding, friendship, and common ground .

So many people put so much into their religion, so much of their emotional strength, that anything that appears to be a mild threat to it becomes far more than it would be for others. I know I can get angry when aspects of my personal faith I rely on to get by on a day-to-day basis are insulted, because I need that.
However, I feel that is often taken far too far, to the point where not just insulting a religion, but doing anything such as showing there is an alternative, and another person is happy while doing it, is ridiculous, and disgusting. Its the difference between getting mad when someone comes up to you while you're eating a sandwich and saying "I hate sandwiches, anyone who eats a sandwich is evil, even though it doesn't effect me, but I'm going to judge your for eating it." and you telling them off, and you yourself going up to someone and saying "I like sandwiches, because you don't, your life is inferior to mine, and even though you not liking sandwiches doesn't affect me in any way, I am going to judge you for it."

If that makes sense?

It certainly is true that there are many sandwich eaters, er, people in religions, who feel threatened by the very existence of other religions. That anyone isn't a part of their chosen group is scary, because it means that maybe their worldview is flawed at some deep level if they are happy doing something different.

But maybe that's not it, and its something else that makes them freak the hell out *shrug* that's just what it seems to me. Actually, its definitely not just that one thing, but you get what I'm saying.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

As a Christian, other religions or belief systems don't threaten me.

I grew up very close with a Hindu friend, my sister married a different Hindu, and I'm a Christian dating a Pagan, just to lay that out.

If I was going to try to describe God, I'd describe God as a mirror broken into a million shards, and each religion gets a little glimpse of the whole. Sometimes they see more than others, sometimes the mirror is distorted, but everyone is seeing a part of the same whole, whatever that is.

I believe in God (YHWH) whole heartedly, but I think it would narcissistic and hubristic to say I understood the nature of God. Therefore, who am I to judge other people's religions?

There are so many similarities, large and small, across so many religions, some of them accidental, some of them clearly from appropriation or cross-pollination, it would be silly to disregard them. In fact, I've found them to be a great source of bonding, friendship, and common ground .

So many people put so much into their religion, so much of their emotional strength, that anything that appears to be a mild threat to it becomes far more than it would be for others. I know I can get angry when aspects of my personal faith I rely on to get by on a day-to-day basis are insulted, because I need that.
However, I feel that is often taken far too far, to the point where not just insulting a religion, but doing anything such as showing there is an alternative, and another person is happy while doing it, is ridiculous, and disgusting. Its the difference between getting mad when someone comes up to you while you're eating a sandwich and saying "I hate sandwiches, anyone who eats a sandwich is evil, even though it doesn't effect me, but I'm going to judge your for eating it." and you telling them off, and you yourself going up to someone and saying "I like sandwiches, because you don't, your life is inferior to mine, and even though you not liking sandwiches doesn't affect me in any way, I am going to judge you for it."

If that makes sense?

It certainly is true that there are many sandwich eaters, er, people in religions, who feel threatened by the very existence of other religions. That anyone isn't a part of their chosen group is scary, because it means that maybe their worldview is flawed at some deep level if they are happy doing something different.

But maybe that's not it, and its something else that makes them freak the hell out *shrug* that's just what it seems to me. Actually, its definitely not just that one thing, but you get what I'm saying.

How do you deal with this:

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39 and " I am God, the only God there is. Besides me there are no real gods." Isaiah 45:5-12

Because to me, this says "I'm the only guy and there are no other guys" when talking to a Hindu? They may be willing to accept your God as a god, but certainly not the only god, since they are generally hard polytheists. But what to do say to a god like Gansha, who is not only clearly not the same as your god, but is also worshiped strongly with idols. (Because there's that whole no idols thing too.)

[Malflick]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

How do you deal with this:

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39 and " I am God, the only God there is. Besides me there are no real gods." Isaiah 45:5-12

Because to me, this says "I'm the only guy and there are no other guys" when talking to a Hindu? They may be willing to accept your God as a god, but certainly not the only god, since they are generally hard polytheists. But what to do say to a god like Gansha, who is not only clearly not the same as your god, but is also worshiped strongly with idols. (Because there's that whole no idols thing too.)

A few things, many of which don't fit with each other:
1. Pantheism is a possibility of god.
2. I don't have to agree with everything in every other religion to respect them, and treat their religion with respect, as no synchronicity will be total. There are plenty of gods that seem nothing at all like the god I worship in any way shape or form.
3. I don't believe the Bible is infallible. Its full of contradictions. That doesn't mean I don't revere its text, and it doesn't mean I don't think it isn't the right way for me, but it does mean that not every passage by itself is always the truth.
4. Henotheism is a valid interpretation of the Bible as well, if one acknowledges the manipulation of many texts by the Deuteronomist sect that occurred after the Jewish people were kicked out of their homeland as a way to unite the faith.
5. Other people in the world had revelations of the divine, while I have found the one I am following to be correct, saying that with certainty beyond question is dangerous in my eyes. Other people might indeed have a better or more true idea of the divine, and throwing out the uniqueness of their own beliefs for the sake of my own is kind of... haughty.
6. Or maybe YHWH is the only god, and the other images people have gotten of what the divine is are so distorted that they can't be synchronized much. That still doesn't mean I know better than them about what they know.
7. YHWH didn't want to be worshipped with idols. YHWH didn't want people who worshipped he/she/it to worship other gods. As long as I don't have to worship other people's gods, I don't see why I should care they have chosen a different path if they are living a good life.
8. The New testament pretty much always takes priority over the old if there is a conflict. Same with Jesus over Paul.
9. Jesus didn't give a shit what other people were doing religiously if they were living a good life.
10. Even if I think someone's religion is total BS, and their gods are fake, I don't have to try to force them to accept my God as the only one.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

A few things, many of which don't fit with each other:
1. Pantheism is a possibility of god.
2. I don't have to agree with everything in every other religion to respect them, and treat their religion with respect, as no synchronicity will be total. There are plenty of gods that seem nothing at all like the god I worship in any way shape or form.
3. I don't believe the Bible is infallible. Its full of contradictions. That doesn't mean I don't revere its text, and it doesn't mean I don't think it isn't the right way for me, but it does mean that not every passage by itself is always the truth.
4. Henotheism is a valid interpretation of the Bible as well, if one acknowledges the manipulation of many texts by the Deuteronomist sect that occurred after the Jewish people were kicked out of their homeland as a way to unite the faith.
5. Other people in the world had revelations of the divine, while I have found the one I am following to be correct, saying that with certainty beyond question is dangerous in my eyes. Other people might indeed have a better or more true idea of the divine, and throwing out the uniqueness of their own beliefs for the sake of my own is kind of... haughty.
6. Or maybe YHWH is the only god, and the other images people have gotten of what the divine is are so distorted that they can't be synchronized much. That still doesn't mean I know better than them about what they know.
7. YHWH didn't want to be worshipped with idols. YHWH didn't want people who worshipped he/she/it to worship other gods. As long as I don't have to worship other people's gods, I don't see why I should care they have chosen a different path if they are living a good life.
8. The New testament pretty much always takes priority over the old if there is a conflict. Same with Jesus over Paul.
9. Jesus didn't give a shit what other people were doing religiously if they were living a good life.
10. Even if I think someone's religion is total BS, and their gods are fake, I don't have to try to force them to accept my God as the only one.

Do these concepts jive with your church or do you practice a more heretical type Christianity? I have had some very enlightening conversations with Christians who told me their "brand" of Christianity wouldn't be church approved, but they felt it was Jesus approved.

[Malflick]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

Do these concepts jive with your church or do you practice a more heretical type Christianity? I have had some very enlightening conversations with Christians who told me their "brand" of Christianity wouldn't be church approved, but they felt it was Jesus approved.

I'm a heretic, totally.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

I'm a heretic, totally.

So do you have any experience with organized Christians and religious synchronicity?

I see a lot of the same themes from Bible stories in a lot of other faiths/myths, including many that wouldn't have been influenced by Christianity (Tribal American, African, etc) but whenever I've mentioned these similarities in certain company its not gone very well....

[anunitu]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

A lot of myths seem to reflect the same story's Rowan. The birth from a virgin,the death and resurrection,the ascension from earth to another place(heaven)

Some have suggested that Christian belief was copied from a much older belief that was popular before Christ.

[Malflick]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

So do you have any experience with organized Christians and religious synchronicity?

I see a lot of the same themes from Bible stories in a lot of other faiths/myths, including many that wouldn't have been influenced by Christianity (Tribal American, African, etc) but whenever I've mentioned these similarities in certain company its not gone very well....

It doesn't really come up much. When it does the usual answer is that:
1. The other people got a glimpse of God and got it wrong.
2. Satan is tricking them and making up parallels to lead people astray.

Though I have met a few pastors who had a view as egalitarian, or more so, than my own on this topic.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Is the papal statement from a prior Pope.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/are-all-other-religions-wrong

is a more general statement from a priest. I'll note that the priest has a highly idealized interpretation and that the Catholic Church is more than a little guilty of sending mixed messages over the course of its existence but idealism aside, the general interpretation he gives that one can find Truth in a great number of religions, it just isn't as complete as Catholic tradition is something I've seen in other Catholics.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...aetate_en.html

Is the papal statement from a prior Pope.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/are-all-other-religions-wrong

is a more general statement from a priest. I'll note that the priest has a highly idealized interpretation and that the Catholic Church is more than a little guilty of sending mixed messages over the course of its existence but idealism aside, the general interpretation he gives that one can find Truth in a great number of religions, it just isn't as complete as Catholic tradition is something I've seen in other Catholics.

Considering the original thread this came from, and the obvious synchronicity with specifically Catholicism, none of this particularly surprises me. The Vatican is also rather good at disseminating language anyway.



I wonder if there are other faiths besides Evangelical Christianity that might struggle with the concept of synchronicity. Neo-Pagans seem pretty cozy with it, but as a general rule, pagans tend to be religiously thoughtful, since up until very recent generations neopaganism is unlikely to have been someone's religion of birth.

Any one have an input of what other faiths might need to deal with? Or how they might be able to overcome it?

I'd love to hear the input of someone who does NOT accept synchronicity as a possible truth.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

Can't help there. Least I can't help without putting in time and effort that I don't care to atm. I have some general knowledge of non-Catholic Christian sects but not enough to feel comfortable presenting their views on this topic right now. The same applies to most major world religions.

[Orecha]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

only god, since they are generally hard polytheists. But what to do say to a god like Gansha, who is not only clearly not the same as your god, but is also worshiped strongly with idols. (Because there's that whole no idols thing too.)

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer from my point of view.
I would first consult the Hebrew to see what the verses in question really say.
Here's a much more literal translation (but, be warned, it's still a translation, so it's missing the nuances of the original language):

Deuteronomy 32:39 -- "See now that I and only I am the one and there is no source of powers with me. I kill and I make live, I wound and I heal, and there is nothing that take away from my power."

Isaiah 45:5-12 -- "I am Existence, and there is no 'other,' and there is no other source of powers besides me. I surrounded you though you do not know me. That they may know from the sun's rising and setting that there is nothing outside of me; I am Existence and there is no 'other.' I form illumination and create obscurity, I make balance and create dysfunction; I, Existence, make all things. Drop down Ethereal Realms from on high, let the sky pour out righteousness, let the Material Realm open, and let them bring forth aid and righteousness, springing forth as one; I, existence, have created them. Woe to the one that strives against its maker! Let the artificer strive with the earthenware. Shall the clay say to the one who fashions it, 'What work can you make without hands?' Woe to the one who says to the father, 'Who sired you?' or to the woman, 'Who bore you?' So says Existence, Holy One and Maker of the Soldier of God, 'Ask me of things to come concerning my children and the works of my powers; command me.' I have made the Material Realm and created humanity within it. I, my powers, have unfolded the Ethereal Realms and I have commanded all of their host."

From this, in comparing these passages to Hinduism, YHVH (Y'howah or Yahweh) is comparable to Brahman, the source of all and the true reality in most forms of Hinduism. So, what I would say to a Hindu is, "While you worship the gods that are manifestations of the Brahman in order to serve the Brahman, I worship the Brahman directly." They would get it 100% and not be at all offended.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Religious Syncronicity...

From this, in comparing these passages to Hinduism, YHVH (Y'howah or Yahweh) is comparable to Brahman, the source of all and the true reality in most forms of Hinduism. So, what I would say to a Hindu is, "While you worship the gods that are manifestations of the Brahman in order to serve the Brahman, I worship the Brahman directly." They would get it 100% and not be at all offended.

Do you think even this statement is something say, a Pentecostal or Baptist Christian could even handle?


I'm on board, totally with this. I have no trouble with anyone as a soft-polytheist pantheist, since hey, it's all out there. But I would really love the opinion of someone with a really concrete monotheistic view.