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    #16
    Re: Fiction and Religion

    Originally posted by Aeran View Post
    Sure, as soon as you find me a Jedi Master :|
    Here's a list of Jedi ministries. http://www.jedichurch.org/webapps/d/...edi-ministries
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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      #17
      Re: Fiction and Religion

      Nope, a Jedi Master specifically, one who's practices are sourced directly from the Star Wars media and who can demonstrate the results of those practices as depicted in said media.

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        #18
        Re: Fiction and Religion

        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
        Nope, a Jedi Master specifically, one who's practices are sourced directly from the Star Wars media and who can demonstrate the results of those practices as depicted in said media.
        And I gave you a list of Jedi ministries. Here's one from new Zealand: boop
        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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          #19
          Re: Fiction and Religion

          Originally posted by Denarius View Post
          And I gave you a list of Jedi ministries. Here's one from new Zealand: boop
          The deal wasn't for a Jedi ministry, but for a Jedi master, someone who has devoted their life to practicing the Jedi Arts as depicted in Star Wars, who has achieved the subsequent capabilities also depicted in Star Wars and who teaches the same. It's ok, I can be patient while you look one up.

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            #20
            Re: Fiction and Religion

            Click on that link, that is a Jedi Master. Everything else is you moving the goal posts.
            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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              #21
              Re: Fiction and Religion

              Originally posted by Denarius View Post
              Click on that link, that is a Jedi Master. Everything else is you moving the goal posts.
              No it isn't. A Jedi master is by definition someone who has mastered the techniques of the Jedi, if this person hasn't done so, then he isn't a Jedi master, just someone getting his kicks by dressing up as a character from a movie.

              A Chi Kung master is someone who has dedicated their life to practicing Chi Kung, who can teach the same and can demonstrate the benefits and effects associated with the phenomenon of Chi. For your claim that The Force is on the same level as Chi to hold up, then this man you're linking me to must be able to do the same with the Jedi teachings of the force. Are you claiming that this man, for example, can demonstrate precognition or psychokinesis, or that he possesses and is capable of fighting with a lightsaber? All of those things are an essential part of the Jedi practices and the teachings of the Force as described in the Star Wars movies.

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                #22
                Re: Fiction and Religion

                Moving the goal posts. No different from me saying that the chi master has to throw hadoukens or fly.
                Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                  #23
                  Re: Fiction and Religion

                  It's entirely different - what you're describing comes from anime and has nothing to do with the actual practice of Chi Kung (except for the borrowing of a few names and concepts). Genuine chi Kung masters and traditional chi kung texts don't claim to be able to produce 'hadoukens' or fly, while lightsabers, telekinesis etc are an essential part of the core source "(indeed, the only source) of the "Jedi teachings."

                  All this is just you dodging the fact that the force doesn't exist as a reference to anything in the real world, while Chi does. Even if you choose to believe that Chi itself doesn't exist in the way described by traditional chinese philosophy (and it's not an uncommon opinion, many people hold that Chi is something akin to phlogiston, a nonexistent substance used to describe phenomenon which aren't properly understood yet), the fact remains that it still refers to a real system of philosophy, a real way of understanding the world, a real set of practices, all of which developed from practice, study and investigation.

                  The force is a plot device, Chi, even if it doesn't literally exist in a way that conforms to the traditional model, is a phenomenon which is studied and which is experience through a system of practices.
                  Last edited by Aeran; 26 Feb 2014, 09:09.

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                    #24
                    Re: Fiction and Religion

                    So, you are not moving the goal posts you're just a hypocrite. Gotcha.
                    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Fiction and Religion

                      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                      So, you are not moving the goal posts you're just a hypocrite. Gotcha.
                      LOL. Please expand on how I'm a 'hypocrite.' You know, if you aren't too busy hunting down someone who owns a lightsaber.

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                        #26
                        Re: Fiction and Religion

                        ^semantics

                        Please direct me to a photograph, radiograph, video recording, or other valid scientific measurement of a force or energy or substance called chi.

                        Seems just as scientifically invalid as "the force", and therefore, just as valid fodder for religious beliefs.

                        Or:

                        Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                        IMHO - all religions are stories we tell ourselves, then, frequently, forget they are stories.

                        If religions can be stories, stories can be religions (if A=B then B=A).
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

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                          #27
                          Re: Fiction and Religion

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          Please direct me to a photograph, radiograph, video recording, or other valid scientific measurement of a force or energy or substance called chi.

                          Seems just as scientifically invalid as "the force", and therefore, just as valid fodder for religious beliefs.
                          Well, that wasn't what we were actually debating, but since you asked...



                          It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by speci …


                          This article reports the result of an experiment that was designed to measure the biomagnetic field emanating from two individuals who were practising traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing exercises. The biomagnetic field was measured with differential coils wound 80,000 turns, a magnetic needle co …


                          The 3-5 microns infrared spectra of the external "Qi" generated by a "Qigong" master from his palm was measured using a III-V compound semiconductor InSb detector. It was found that certain Qigong master can emit two opposite kinds of "Qi": the "facilitating" (beneficial) and "inhibiting" (destroyin …




                          Stories of g-tummo meditators mysteriously able to dry wet sheets wrapped around their naked bodies during a frigid Himalayan ceremony have intrigued scholars and laypersons alike for a century. Study 1 was conducted in remote monasteries of eastern Tibet with expert meditators performing g-tummo practices while their axillary temperature and electroencephalographic (EEG) activity were measured. Study 2 was conducted with Western participants (a non-meditator control group) instructed to use the somatic component of the g-tummo practice (vase breathing) without utilization of meditative visualization. Reliable increases in axillary temperature from normal to slight or moderate fever zone (up to 38.3°C) were observed among meditators only during the Forceful Breath type of g-tummo meditation accompanied by increases in alpha, beta, and gamma power. The magnitude of the temperature increases significantly correlated with the increases in alpha power during Forceful Breath meditation. The findings indicate that there are two factors affecting temperature increase. The first is the somatic component which causes thermogenesis, while the second is the neurocognitive component (meditative visualization) that aids in sustaining temperature increases for longer periods. Without meditative visualization, both meditators and non-meditators were capable of using the Forceful Breath vase breathing only for a limited time, resulting in limited temperature increases in the range of normal body temperature. Overall, the results suggest that specific aspects of the g-tummo technique might help non-meditators learn how to regulate their body temperature, which has implications for improving health and regulating cognitive performance.


                          Of course that doesn't technically prove that Chi itself exists, since it's just a model made up to account for the phenomenon involved, it could easily be some other force or energy, but the point is that the phenomenon themselves are very real, can be experienced and measured.

                          I can dig up videos as well if you want, but they're pretty useless on a first glance because of how easy it is to fake such things, and I doubt you're particularly inclined to spend half a day reading up on the individuals involved to establish their legitimacy.
                          Last edited by Aeran; 26 Feb 2014, 09:23.

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                            #28
                            Re: Fiction and Religion

                            Chi masters don't claim do be able to do ridiculous thing like in the movies, but Jedi Master do? That's ridiculous. If I have to find a Jedi Master who can lift an X-wing with his mind, then you have to find a chi master who can throw a hadouken.

                            We are looking for real world practitioners. I found one for my side, practically right on your doorstep, but you've yet to point to anyone.
                            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Fiction and Religion

                              Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                              Certainly.

                              It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by speci …


                              This article reports the result of an experiment that was designed to measure the biomagnetic field emanating from two individuals who were practising traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing exercises. The biomagnetic field was measured with differential coils wound 80,000 turns, a magnetic needle co …


                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767800

                              That is neither a force or energy or substance called chi...that is manipulation of one's biomagnetic field. Same thing can be done with biofeedback.
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Fiction and Religion

                                hi masters don't claim do be able to do ridiculous thing like in the movies, but Jedi Master do? That's ridiculous. If I have to find a Jedi Master who can lift an X-wing with his mind, then you have to find a chi master who can throw a hadouken.

                                We are looking for real world practitioners. I found one for my side, practically right on your doorstep, but you've yet to point to anyone.
                                The movies aren't the source of chi kung or chinese philosophy, just a weak imitation for the purpose of entertainment. Star Wars "is" the source of the Jedi teachings (indeed, the only source), and as such has to be held as the definitive description of the Force and what it is capable of.


                                That is neither a force or energy or substance called chi...that is manipulation of one's biomagnetic field. Same thing can be done with biofeedback.
                                Semantics. The point is that Chi is a real description of a real set of phenomenon induced by real practices. I never said it was necessarily a correct description.

                                Although I would love to see an example of people manipulating the biomagnetic field to the same degree with biofeedback.
                                Last edited by Aeran; 26 Feb 2014, 09:32.

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