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Thread: Fiction and Religion

  1. #21
    Copper Member Aeran's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Click on that link, that is a Jedi Master. Everything else is you moving the goal posts.
    No it isn't. A Jedi master is by definition someone who has mastered the techniques of the Jedi, if this person hasn't done so, then he isn't a Jedi master, just someone getting his kicks by dressing up as a character from a movie.

    A Chi Kung master is someone who has dedicated their life to practicing Chi Kung, who can teach the same and can demonstrate the benefits and effects associated with the phenomenon of Chi. For your claim that The Force is on the same level as Chi to hold up, then this man you're linking me to must be able to do the same with the Jedi teachings of the force. Are you claiming that this man, for example, can demonstrate precognition or psychokinesis, or that he possesses and is capable of fighting with a lightsaber? All of those things are an essential part of the Jedi practices and the teachings of the Force as described in the Star Wars movies.

  2. #22
    Former Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    Moving the goal posts. No different from me saying that the chi master has to throw hadoukens or fly.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  3. #23
    Copper Member Aeran's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    It's entirely different - what you're describing comes from anime and has nothing to do with the actual practice of Chi Kung (except for the borrowing of a few names and concepts). Genuine chi Kung masters and traditional chi kung texts don't claim to be able to produce 'hadoukens' or fly, while lightsabers, telekinesis etc are an essential part of the core source "(indeed, the only source) of the "Jedi teachings."

    All this is just you dodging the fact that the force doesn't exist as a reference to anything in the real world, while Chi does. Even if you choose to believe that Chi itself doesn't exist in the way described by traditional chinese philosophy (and it's not an uncommon opinion, many people hold that Chi is something akin to phlogiston, a nonexistent substance used to describe phenomenon which aren't properly understood yet), the fact remains that it still refers to a real system of philosophy, a real way of understanding the world, a real set of practices, all of which developed from practice, study and investigation.

    The force is a plot device, Chi, even if it doesn't literally exist in a way that conforms to the traditional model, is a phenomenon which is studied and which is experience through a system of practices.
    Last edited by Aeran; 26 Feb 2014 at 09:09.

  4. #24
    Former Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    So, you are not moving the goal posts you're just a hypocrite. Gotcha.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  5. #25
    Copper Member Aeran's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    So, you are not moving the goal posts you're just a hypocrite. Gotcha.
    LOL. Please expand on how I'm a 'hypocrite.' You know, if you aren't too busy hunting down someone who owns a lightsaber.

  6. #26
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    ^semantics

    Please direct me to a photograph, radiograph, video recording, or other valid scientific measurement of a force or energy or substance called chi.

    Seems just as scientifically invalid as "the force", and therefore, just as valid fodder for religious beliefs.

    Or:

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    IMHO - all religions are stories we tell ourselves, then, frequently, forget they are stories.

    If religions can be stories, stories can be religions (if A=B then B=A).
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  7. #27
    Copper Member Aeran's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    Please direct me to a photograph, radiograph, video recording, or other valid scientific measurement of a force or energy or substance called chi.

    Seems just as scientifically invalid as "the force", and therefore, just as valid fodder for religious beliefs.
    Well, that wasn't what we were actually debating, but since you asked...



    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1353653

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9051169

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767800

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0408084858.htm

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0058244

    Of course that doesn't technically prove that Chi itself exists, since it's just a model made up to account for the phenomenon involved, it could easily be some other force or energy, but the point is that the phenomenon themselves are very real, can be experienced and measured.

    I can dig up videos as well if you want, but they're pretty useless on a first glance because of how easy it is to fake such things, and I doubt you're particularly inclined to spend half a day reading up on the individuals involved to establish their legitimacy.
    Last edited by Aeran; 26 Feb 2014 at 09:23.

  8. #28
    Former Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    Chi masters don't claim do be able to do ridiculous thing like in the movies, but Jedi Master do? That's ridiculous. If I have to find a Jedi Master who can lift an X-wing with his mind, then you have to find a chi master who can throw a hadouken.

    We are looking for real world practitioners. I found one for my side, practically right on your doorstep, but you've yet to point to anyone.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  9. #29
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion


    That is neither a force or energy or substance called chi...that is manipulation of one's biomagnetic field. Same thing can be done with biofeedback.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  10. #30
    Copper Member Aeran's Avatar
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    Re: Fiction and Religion

    hi masters don't claim do be able to do ridiculous thing like in the movies, but Jedi Master do? That's ridiculous. If I have to find a Jedi Master who can lift an X-wing with his mind, then you have to find a chi master who can throw a hadouken.

    We are looking for real world practitioners. I found one for my side, practically right on your doorstep, but you've yet to point to anyone.
    The movies aren't the source of chi kung or chinese philosophy, just a weak imitation for the purpose of entertainment. Star Wars "is" the source of the Jedi teachings (indeed, the only source), and as such has to be held as the definitive description of the Force and what it is capable of.


    That is neither a force or energy or substance called chi...that is manipulation of one's biomagnetic field. Same thing can be done with biofeedback.
    Semantics. The point is that Chi is a real description of a real set of phenomenon induced by real practices. I never said it was necessarily a correct description.

    Although I would love to see an example of people manipulating the biomagnetic field to the same degree with biofeedback.
    Last edited by Aeran; 26 Feb 2014 at 09:32.

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