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    #46
    Re: about Depression

    I think there are several things that maybe need to be taken into consideration here. Firstly depression may be a mental illness (or at least within that spectrum) but not all mental illnesses are depression. And not all anti-social behaviour is down to mental illness either.

    Secondly, diagnosis for depression is a clinical one. No blood tests, no scans will show it up for definite - it's purely down to what the psychiatrist/doctor thinks. And if the said doctor has a 'thing' for one type of diagnosis over another, then that is what you will get.

    Now anyone who has ever had depression or lived with someone who has it (or any other mental illness for that matter) will tell you that it's very real indeed. And it's not just the person who has the condition who has to live with it. It's not a question of 'being strong' or 'pull yourself together' - it can't be done, at least, not by everyone. And it can't be done all the time.

    People can be down, they can feel depressed, but that doesn't mean they have depression, which is a totally different beast.

    There are different solutions for different people - and again that's fine. Before people go all 'Oh but science says...' on me, I would like to point out that many of the drugs used to treat depression were actually developed to treat other conditions first. Such as epilepsy. Is curing epilepsy just a question of 'being strong' or 'pull yourself together'?? No, of course not. So
    why is depression/mental health any different? I'm not sure that it is.

    What I do know is that it is a killer. And we need to remember that before we are too unkind to those who ask for advice.
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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      #47
      Re: about Depression

      Originally posted by ChainLightning View Post
      Explain please.

      Because what I make of all that, is that we need to start blaming what's been called a disease on society at large. As in, the chemicals in my brain aren't off kilter but, actually, society has brainwashed me, instead.

      Are you serious, with this theory? That there's no such biochemical aspect to mental illness, just social pressure, gullibility and indoctrination?

      If so, might I ask how this theory addresses spirituality? Is that just a cultural delusion, then?
      I can only explain the way that I understand it, which isn't very, so keep that in mind. I'm fairly certain you'll understand this view though - I think you and I have discussed it before.

      Using ADD/ADHD as an example - the "illness" has existed for hundreds of years, but only up until about 20 years ago, you could beat the shit out of your kid until they learned how to "deal" with their "illness". Of course, some people didn't - and they were probably largely unemployable, self-medicating with whatever would work. Others became Robin Williams. But now, since we can't...well...nearly kill our kids with education, the problem is far more noticeable than it was before. Psychologists/Psychiatrists love to come up with new mental conditions because it justifies their existence...so I can definitely understand the perspective, that these "new conditions" aren't new, and that it's only how we deal with it that has changed.

      My own reference is something a little different, which I would love to see some studies on. As you're aware, there have been a few articles floating around for a couple of years that discuss the idea that what makes a person a good CEO of a powerful corporation happen to be the same things that make a Sociopath good at being an evil bastard. For the last few months I've been thinking, "Well, no wonder we're seeing more assholes around. We've decided that the valuable traits that we want running our corporations are completely detached from humanity...no wonder these people are 1) surviving 2) thriving 3) growing in numbers. It's a successful model."

      At any rate, that's what I got from it. Being too lazy to research it on my own has led me to only a vague understanding of it myself

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        #48
        Re: about Depression

        Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
        I can only explain the way that I understand it, which isn't very, so keep that in mind. I'm fairly certain you'll understand this view though - I think you and I have discussed it before.

        Using ADD/ADHD as an example - the "illness" has existed for hundreds of years, but only up until about 20 years ago, you could beat the shit out of your kid until they learned how to "deal" with their "illness". Of course, some people didn't - and they were probably largely unemployable, self-medicating with whatever would work. Others became Robin Williams. But now, since we can't...well...nearly kill our kids with education, the problem is far more noticeable than it was before. Psychologists/Psychiatrists love to come up with new mental conditions because it justifies their existence...so I can definitely understand the perspective, that these "new conditions" aren't new, and that it's only how we deal with it that has changed.

        My own reference is something a little different, which I would love to see some studies on. As you're aware, there have been a few articles floating around for a couple of years that discuss the idea that what makes a person a good CEO of a powerful corporation happen to be the same things that make a Sociopath good at being an evil bastard. For the last few months I've been thinking, "Well, no wonder we're seeing more assholes around. We've decided that the valuable traits that we want running our corporations are completely detached from humanity...no wonder these people are 1) surviving 2) thriving 3) growing in numbers. It's a successful model."

        At any rate, that's what I got from it. Being too lazy to research it on my own has led me to only a vague understanding of it myself
        Oh hell yeah, we did cover that... almost haphazard, give-the-kid-some-drugs response by what seems to be doctors a little too eager to pass 'being a kid' off as hyperactive or incapable of holding their attention. I don't think we really put it out there like there is no such disease, that society made it up, or that it was anything other than a too frequent a diagnosis, for an ailment that wasn't quite matching the treatment, in terms of numbers. Far more kids have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD than actually *have* it - that sort of thing.

        Seems to me, another item that we included was autism. Like parents claiming "borderline autistic" to excuse misbehavior. I can't exactly remember. It's been far too long since you and I have had any good, in depth discussions like that, you know. So long that it seems like a few of them melded into one rather brief discussion, that wound up getting interrupted by chickpeas and cheese.

        But yeah, I just got the impression that Midg was going a few blocks further than you and I (and some others) did.




        "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

        "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

        "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

        "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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          #49
          Re: about Depression

          He might be, but we should probably wait and see...I can't answer for that.

          Regardless, I find the topic intriguing as I've always focused on the differences between Nature and Nurture...<shrug>

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            #50
            Re: about Depression

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            Maybe this could be split off into a separate thread?
            I'm not sure I have permission to do start a new thread, but would certainly be pleased to join one. My suggestion for the title would be something like 'perspectives on mental illness and social deviance'
            Last edited by MaskedOne; 10 Jun 2014, 14:04.

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              #51
              Re: about Depression

              Originally posted by midgnostic View Post
              Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
              Maybe this could be split off into a separate thread?
              I'm not sure I have permission to do start a new thread, but would certainly be pleased to join one. My suggestion for the title would be something like 'perspectives on mental illness and social deviance'
              Unless you've been specifically told not to by a staff member, you're allowed to open a thread.
              Last edited by MaskedOne; 10 Jun 2014, 14:04.
              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                #52
                Re: about Depression

                I also lost a dear friend many years ago and there are days I still miss her. They put her through every chemical intervention they could imagine and ultimately did electro-convulsive therapy. I was stunned that it was still done in the 1990s, but it was a sort of last-resort-hail-mary thing. Anyway, she's gone. Here's the thing -- everything was premised on the chemical theory of depression, which has been repeated so often that it is taken as fact. It isn't. The chemical theory of depression is like having a blood theory of scabs. http://link.springer.com/article/10..../fulltext.html, for what it's worth.

                "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                  #53
                  Re: about Depression

                  Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                  BAH! This whole ADD/ADHD/bipolar is a scam to make normal people think that something is wrong with themselves. You are bombarded every day with useless commercials, listing hundreds of "symptoms" which could be caused by a thousand different things in the mundane life. All forms of main stream media communication will cause one stress, high blood pressure, ulcers, headaches, migraines, and loss of sleep. They intentionally want you to worry. Children are the most vulnerable as their un-qualified teachers are stuffing them full of drugs and dope that isn't even approved for human consumption, all the while "diagnosing" them with so-called behavioural problems when they are just merely acting like a kid!
                  It's not the physical, it is, however, the mental. Crowley wrote "Determine then, to become the Master of your own mind". You have already recognized certain symptoms or ideas that you have which you associate with suffering, etc... but what you haven't discovered yet is how to shut the door on those concepts. It's all about your own mental attitude. Are you a beta male who will passively just take it and whine about it feeling depressed OR are you an Alpha Male, giving yourself a mental kick in the ass to get off the couch and DO something about it? Are you not the Master of your own mind?
                  There is no one to forgive you nor help you but yourself. It might help if you imagined a deity talking you through it. Myself, I occasionally use the image of my old boot camp drill instructor screaming obscenities in my face, pushing me until I find the inner strength to make it over or through the challenge. It's all about making the conscious decision not to put up with the symptoms any more.
                  This isn't even about depression but rather the lack of Will to succeed and overcome.
                  Are you claiming that ADD, ADDHD and Bipolar are not real? There is a lot that goes into the diagnosing of these type of illnesses and/or disorders and should not be thrown to the wind because some doctors are over diagnosing or lumping certain behaviours under one of these because they are not sure what to do.
                  There is something pagan in me that I cannot shake off. In short, I deny nothing, but doubt everything. - Lord Byron

                  Come forth into the light of things, let nature be your teacher. -
                  William Wordsworth

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                    #54
                    Re: about Depression

                    Originally posted by dgirl1986 View Post
                    Are you claiming that ADD, ADDHD and Bipolar are not real?
                    That is what he appears to be saying.

                    Originally posted by dgirl1986 View Post
                    There is a lot that goes into the diagnosing of these type of illnesses and/or disorders and should not be thrown to the wind because some doctors are over diagnosing or lumping certain behaviours under one of these because they are not sure what to do.
                    Sometimes that's the case, but as I said in another thread, when money is involved all bets are off (and let me just say that when money is involved and there is nothing that can be proven or disproven (right now), it ONLY serves to make things worse).

                    Chiropracty used to be a real discipline that provided some good for some people (and honestly, sometimes it still does)...but look at what has happened? Short school and you can almost call yourself doctor? Well shit, now we have too many "doctors"...they need to start competing. And suddenly we have "doctors" claiming that a neck adjustment can cure your cancer.

                    Misdiagnoses is very very real (and very common in the US)...but as you say, this does not mean that there is no legitimacy to the illness(es).

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                      #55
                      Re: about Depression

                      Ok, let me try to explain myself a bit better. As Pagans and Practicioners of the Occult, we ALREADY have a fair idea of our own powers and capabilities and we are aware of our weaknesses and strengths. Once you RECOGNIZE that (for lack of a better word) disease or mental hinderance, you KNOW what the triggers and reactions are.
                      Instead of going to a dr and getting man-made poisons which aren't approved for human consumption, why not try something NATURAL or metaphysical instead? example: Myself and 4 others fashioned a medallion for a Brother with chronic bronchitis and athsma. He was on a respirator and o2 constantly. 6 months after we gave him the consecrated medallion, he was in the woods at Elf Fest banging away on some bongos bellowing "BABBALOO" like a fruitloop.
                      Now, what I suggest is finding a 'helper' of the mind. In the "Necronomicon", TUTU 'silences the weeping and gives joy...' so if one was to take an ingot or pure silver coin, inscribe upon it TUTU, do the proper invocation and consecration and purification under a Full Moon, the effect on the persons mind will be subconscious. The negative depression or whatever, is banished and one has the powers of ones own mind to thank.
                      I can also offer a few books to read: "Consciously Creating Circumstances" and "The Crack In the Cosmic Egg" come to mind as does "Flow".
                      I trust I'm a bit less obtuse than my previous posts on this matter.

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                        #56
                        Re: about Depression

                        Warwulf, I prefer natural methods too but there are things that can't be fixed without going to a doctor.
                        I have asthma and I can't deal with it without my inhalator. It doesn't always work like you say.
                        "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                        Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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                          #57
                          Re: about Depression

                          Originally posted by dgirl1986 View Post
                          Are you claiming that ADD, ADDHD and Bipolar are not real? There is a lot that goes into the diagnosing of these type of illnesses and/or disorders and should not be thrown to the wind because some doctors are over diagnosing or lumping certain behaviours under one of these because they are not sure what to do.
                          Not necessarily. They're real in the fact that they affect peoples attitudes and behaviours but I doubt the Drs abilities to diagnose and fix the problem, not the symptoms. I've known psychotics, manic depressives and ADD folks who are also into the Occult. They were ALL aware of their condition yet were also capable of dealing with, say the phantasms that appeared or a manic episode. They were able to use the power of their own Will to defeat the urges and feelings that were detrimental and false.
                          I have an instinctive dislike of all Drs, for I think they are over-paid, over-rated, egomaniacal ingrates who don't have the bedside manner of a sewer rat. They shove Big Pharm hyped non-AMA approved drugs into any poor bastard they can and use them for guinea pigs. But I digress. I've only been forced to go to a Dr twice in 20 years as I always use herbs instead. I am not a dr, don't claim to be one but I know what works and as far as how well all that diagnosing goes, GIGO(garbage in, garbage out). Drs don't see people any more, they only see numbers and symptoms which they try to rule out the endless possibilities before giving you some thing to try to fix it.

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                            #58
                            Re: about Depression

                            Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                            Instead of going to a dr and getting man-made poisons which aren't approved for human consumption,
                            What prescribed medications are not fit for human consumption? AFAIK, at least in the US, in order for something to be sold as a medication it needs to be approved by the FDA. Or do you mean they haven't been approved by you? :-/

                            Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                            why not try something NATURAL or metaphysical instead?
                            I don't know...unknown side-effects, a lack of clinical trials, a lack of any scientific data at all. As far as the metaphysical side, I'm still waiting for one (just ONE) credible story that identifies any sort of "metaphysical" solution, for anything. Yes. Anything.

                            Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                            example: Myself and 4 others fashioned a medallion for a Brother with chronic bronchitis and athsma. He was on a respirator and o2 constantly. 6 months after we gave him the consecrated medallion, he was in the woods at Elf Fest banging away on some bongos bellowing "BABBALOO" like a fruitloop.
                            Unfortunately, without any actual details, this sounds like complete and utter bullshit. Bronchitis will pass, and asthma isn't necessarily something that always requires medication. But then again, since as you admit below that you're not a doctor, we will never find out what the scientific reality of your brother's possible conditions. For all we know he was out of breath and you did get a shitty doctor.

                            Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                            Now, what I suggest is finding a 'helper' of the mind. In the "Necronomicon", TUTU 'silences the weeping and gives joy...' so if one was to take an ingot or pure silver coin, inscribe upon it TUTU, do the proper invocation and consecration and purification under a Full Moon, the effect on the persons mind will be subconscious. The negative depression or whatever, is banished and one has the powers of ones own mind to thank.
                            I can also offer a few books to read: "Consciously Creating Circumstances" and "The Crack In the Cosmic Egg" come to mind as does "Flow".
                            Allow me to offer *you* some reading material:
                            This is a list of topics in which we have found stories where a lack of critical thinking has caused unnecessary harm, death, injury, hospitalizations, major financial loss or other damages.

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                              #59
                              Re: about Depression

                              Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                              As Pagans and Practicioners of the Occult, we ALREADY have a fair idea of our own powers and capabilities and we are aware of our weaknesses and strengths. Once you RECOGNIZE that (for lack of a better word) disease or mental hinderance, you KNOW what the triggers and reactions are.
                              Instead of going to a dr and getting man-made poisons which aren't approved for human consumption, why not try something NATURAL or metaphysical instead?
                              Not all Pagans or practitioners of magic believe that it suspends natural laws, basic biology or physics or chemistry.

                              Also, plenty of "natural" things ARE "poisons". Nor is something inferior simply because it is "man-made".
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                              sigpic

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                                #60
                                Re: about Depression

                                Originally posted by warwulf View Post
                                I have an instinctive dislike of all Drs, for I think they are over-paid, over-rated, egomaniacal ingrates who don't have the bedside manner of a sewer rat. They shove Big Pharm hyped non-AMA approved drugs into any poor bastard they can and use them for guinea pigs. But I digress. I've only been forced to go to a Dr twice in 20 years as I always use herbs instead. I am not a dr, don't claim to be one but I know what works and as far as how well all that diagnosing goes, GIGO(garbage in, garbage out). Drs don't see people any more, they only see numbers and symptoms which they try to rule out the endless possibilities before giving you some thing to try to fix it.
                                I appreciate you may not like doctors, you might have had bad experiences in the past, but as someone who has to see them far more often than she would like, I think you're being unfair. (I will say here that my problems are physical in nature but they're pretty severe now.) All drugs in the UK are pretty strictly controlled - some of mine can only come from the hospital (i.e. the local GP is not allowed to prescribe them.)

                                All in all, I've been very well treated. They can't cure me, but they try very hard (and mostly succeed) in keeping things at bay. I think the ones I've dealt with (in a variety of hospitals over a long period of time) are pretty damn good.

                                I have never actually met a sewer rat so I don't know what sort of bedside manners they have. But most of the doctors I've met? They're fine. They're keeping me going.
                                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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