The Pledge of Allegiance

[Corvus]

Thal's recent blog post about the pledge of allegiance got me thinking. The post itself was a rant about the line "under god" but in formulating a response I kinda went off topic and decided I would make a thread here instead to discuss it. For the non-Americans on the forum here's the wiki page on the pledge of allegiance

My question is, should the pledge be spoken in school at all?

The comment I was going to post which explores some of my personal feelings.

Spoiler!

I'm not entirely sure why we even say the pledge at all. It's never been explained to us kids. Is it to try to ingrain patriotism in us? Most of the kids in my morning class don't say it, they just stand, but the teachers all do. We aren't forced to say it but we are forced to stand while it's going on.

I brought it up in Sociology class (of all places) and was basically told because we're told to. It's just words to us after a while. We don't think about what they mean. I recognize that a society needs to build loyalty in it's citizens to function but America claims freedom as it's main tenant and It just seems a little odd that someone decided we should have school age children swearing loyalty.

In the pledge is basically lies anyway. We are very much a divided country, economically being the most obvious with a growing gap between the rich and poor and a very "us" vs "them" mentality governing it. Socially too. Even just staying with the government we have the republicans and democrats, and other political parties, that work to further their own policies while trying to undermine the others. President Washington warned against political parties for this very reason.

Liberty and Justice for all is almost a joke. Slavery still exists in our country, slaves are just no longer distinguished by skin color. There's human traffickers and drug lords living right here in the United States where they take advantage of people. Even more terrifying there's some corporations who employ numerous methods to stifle their employees, a stunning example being Walmart and their anti-union policies. Often times the employees are impoverished and keep these jobs because they need to support families. This isn't even to touch on the abuse of immigrant workers.

I'd like to point out that this isn't necessarily bad. A country does need to indoctrinate it's citizens to some degree in order to maintain it's ideals and to properly function a certain degree of patriotism is needed. Even if the ideals themselves are bull, it shows children what we value as a country. It gives them our ideals of equality and freedom and hopefully instills in them the desire to make those ideals reality. Really, it does make perfect sense to start something like this when children are young. However, they might want to start discussions of what it actually means much earlier than government class in senior year. Like I said, the words are basically meaningless to children. So tell them what they're saying in grade school. Give the words meaning. Though, either way it smells slightly of hypocrisy to make something as structured as the pledge, in which children hear a voice over the loud speaker "please rise for the pledge of allegiance" and see their peers stand, in order to try to teach them that our country stands for freedom.

So what do you think? I imagine we'll have a fairly diverse amount of responses and I'm interested in hearing about it.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I think that there should be a Loyalty Oath for the Constitution, and I think that most of our schooling should focus on that as well. I disagree with the current Oath, but you know...I have more important shit to worry about Most children figure out that it's bullshit when they get older anyway...the internet has also shown Americans that we aren't nearly as awesome as we'd been told in earlier generations.

[anunitu]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Think about this,back when I was a kid(how all stories by old guys start) we did the pledge AND then practiced crawling under our desks for the "If an atomic bomb drops drill". I mean what does that tell a 8 year old kid?

[okoserce]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Just like with the currency used in the US, pledging under the Abrahamic God was a recent addition. I have no issues with voluntary oaths but I think it would be best to use the oath used in the "pre-commi-fear" days.. some for of indoctrination however is nearly inescapable no matter where you go.. but you bring up a valid point in that what we strive for, or seem to strive for as a country often is found lacking..though we often still hold onto this idea of American exceptionalism or rather 'Merica! (nothing wrong with being patriotic- I just have a particular issue with this bravado expression of it.)

[Medusa]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I think that there should be a Loyalty Oath for the Constitution, and I think that most of our schooling should focus on that as well. I disagree with the current Oath, but you know...I have more important shit to worry about Most children figure out that it's bullshit when they get older anyway...the internet has also shown Americans that we aren't nearly as awesome as we'd been told in earlier generations.

Yeah, I'm going with this as my final answer. Thing is soooooome special snowflakes want to make either not saying the pledge or sitting while it's being said as their triumphant spectacular protest. Who cares? Stand and stare into space for all I care. This is a country. This isn't really the 'free' world. There is no such thing. Unless you have enough money. I digress. I think an oath that is up to date is good. But I also like the idea of keeping this one. It shows what we once thought of as a good thing. Shows our sincerity in starting a new country. When we start throwing away all these things of the past...we will soon forget.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I can't really comment on the US because I'm not from there and whatever you do is your business.

I'd feel weird about doing it here. In Germany any level of patriotism that isn't related to soccer feels weird and creepy.

In Canada we had a principal who made us listen to the national anthem every morning. We didn't really have any issues with it, but most parents felt it was a bit odd and old fashioned.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I can't really comment on the US because I'm not from there and whatever you do is your business.

I'd feel weird about doing it here. In Germany any level of patriotism that isn't related to soccer feels weird and creepy.

In Canada we had a principal who made us listen to the national anthem every morning. We didn't really have any issues with it, but most parents felt it was a bit odd and old fashioned.

The local schoolboard here still does the morning anthem, I think it's good, especially since it doesn't say anything 'too' pledgey, I guess. Its kinda just saying 'if Canada gets invaded I won't roll over and not help.'

As far as Americas pledge, I wouldn't mind doing it if I were there, but I see where peoples concerns come in, especially those of diverse faiths.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

As I am in the UK you already know that I will find any find of oath to anything pretty strange. I mean, please don't think that Four Weddings and a Funeral or Notting Hill are representative of the way most of us live...
So... I suppose the nearest thing here is the national anthem. Last night of the proms in London shows a lot of flag waving etc., but it doesn't really work for most of us. Even as a young teenager, I flatly refused to stand for God Save the Queen in cinemas or theatres and they don't play it any more.
The usual comment, in response to 'Stand up! They're playing God save the Queen!'
as 'Why Mam? What's she done?'

But then we Welsh take few things seriously... except, perhaps, our Welshness.

Our Welsh Anthem Mae hen wlad fy nhadau is a rousing song and this is a lovely version - sung at a rugby international game just before Wales beat England...

http://youtu.be/AM4mIlYKG9s

When Wales are in difficulties during a game, the crowd swings into action with various song, hymns and chants. Magic!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

It kills two minutes at the beginning of class.

Aside from that, I care not.

I have more meaningful things to think about than a series of words recited by rote.

[Yorin]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

If I remember correctly from my past studies of it-one of the reasons we got around to saying it in schools every morning was to help build massive patriotism during the Cold War, as that's also when the whole "Under God" part was added to the pledge as part of the whole "lets scare off all the commies" thing going around.

My guess is that its so ingrained in our school systems at this point that if they didn't, someone would be bound to throw a fit that would be blown waaaay out of proportion, and raise the potential of the person who decided that we didn't need to say it get labeled as a potential domestic terrorist.

[jcaternolo]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I say get rid of it it's as useless and outdated as the shinplaster. We shouldn't be pledging allegiance to our country, but instead, be pledging allegiance to our family and friends, and maybe to the constitution (although we have no power to protect the constitution so there's no point, really). If my country is doing something wrong, I have every right to speak out against it, or even leave it if the situation warrants it. Just what is the government afraid of, really?

[Roknrol]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Just what is the government afraid of, really?

Oh that's easy. The Government is afraid of an "Informed Public".

[DanieMarie]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

The local schoolboard here still does the morning anthem, I think it's good, especially since it doesn't say anything 'too' pledgey, I guess. Its kinda just saying 'if Canada gets invaded I won't roll over and not help.'

As far as Americas pledge, I wouldn't mind doing it if I were there, but I see where peoples concerns come in, especially those of diverse faiths.

Haha it wasn't even our school board. It was just our school when the one dude was principal. He started when I was in grade 6, so I was only there for 2 years of anthem singing. We always sang it at assemblies though (I think everyone does in every country?)

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

They don't sing anthems in school assemblies here... in fact they don't even sing at assemblies very often.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

...We shouldn't be pledging allegiance to our country, but instead, be pledging allegiance to our family and friends, and maybe to the constitution (although we have no power to protect the constitution so there's no point, really)....

I'd like to see our ALL of OUR elected officials pledge allegiance to us (The People) and really mean it, rather than pay lip service to this:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

But any words can come out of any mouth, if that mouth is given to fibbing.