The Pledge of Allegiance

[Shahaku]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Thal's recent blog post about the pledge of allegiance got me thinking. The post itself was a rant about the line "under god" but in formulating a response I kinda went off topic and decided I would make a thread here instead to discuss it. For the non-Americans on the forum here's the wiki page on the pledge of allegiance

My question is, should the pledge be spoken in school at all?

The comment I was going to post which explores some of my personal feelings.

Spoiler!

I'm not entirely sure why we even say the pledge at all. It's never been explained to us kids. Is it to try to ingrain patriotism in us? Most of the kids in my morning class don't say it, they just stand, but the teachers all do. We aren't forced to say it but we are forced to stand while it's going on.

I brought it up in Sociology class (of all places) and was basically told because we're told to. It's just words to us after a while. We don't think about what they mean. I recognize that a society needs to build loyalty in it's citizens to function but America claims freedom as it's main tenant and It just seems a little odd that someone decided we should have school age children swearing loyalty.

In the pledge is basically lies anyway. We are very much a divided country, economically being the most obvious with a growing gap between the rich and poor and a very "us" vs "them" mentality governing it. Socially too. Even just staying with the government we have the republicans and democrats, and other political parties, that work to further their own policies while trying to undermine the others. President Washington warned against political parties for this very reason.

Liberty and Justice for all is almost a joke. Slavery still exists in our country, slaves are just no longer distinguished by skin color. There's human traffickers and drug lords living right here in the United States where they take advantage of people. Even more terrifying there's some corporations who employ numerous methods to stifle their employees, a stunning example being Walmart and their anti-union policies. Often times the employees are impoverished and keep these jobs because they need to support families. This isn't even to touch on the abuse of immigrant workers.

I'd like to point out that this isn't necessarily bad. A country does need to indoctrinate it's citizens to some degree in order to maintain it's ideals and to properly function a certain degree of patriotism is needed. Even if the ideals themselves are bull, it shows children what we value as a country. It gives them our ideals of equality and freedom and hopefully instills in them the desire to make those ideals reality. Really, it does make perfect sense to start something like this when children are young. However, they might want to start discussions of what it actually means much earlier than government class in senior year. Like I said, the words are basically meaningless to children. So tell them what they're saying in grade school. Give the words meaning. Though, either way it smells slightly of hypocrisy to make something as structured as the pledge, in which children hear a voice over the loud speaker "please rise for the pledge of allegiance" and see their peers stand, in order to try to teach them that our country stands for freedom.

So what do you think? I imagine we'll have a fairly diverse amount of responses and I'm interested in hearing about it.

I loved Thal's post on this enough to share it to my facebook page. I especially loved the part that listed all of the things from "the good ole days". But I digress.

I have a MIL who believes we should go back to the basic, original Constitution. She doesn't even believe in the Amendments. When I point out that that allows for slaves she shrugs. When I point out that that would not allow for religious diversity, "Good!" She honestly thinks things would be better that way. She also believes in the Pledge. And having "under God" in it. When I point out that the Pledge wasn't around back then... shrug. "Under God" wasn't it it, she doesn't believe me.

That kind of ignorance is where most of my major problems with this whole argument stem from. No one is educated on the Pledge anymore. No one knows what it means, where it came from, when it was written, etc. That makes having kids recite it completely pointless. A waste of time. But being pointless, it also makes it harmless.

So, why should I care whether it's done or not? If their school requires they learn the pledge, with or without "under God" in it, fine. Make them learn it. But tell them what it means, teach them the history behind it, and don't make it into a useless recitation. And the school better not be making exceptions for the fundy-Christian who doesn't want to learn about evolution if my kid is required to learn the Pledge with "under God" in it.

[jcaternolo]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Now that I think about it, I don't think the pledge means unwavering fealty to the USA no matter what. I think it still allows for questioning our leaders and holding them responsible, it just means that we won't do something stupid like sell our secrets to other countries.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I have a MIL who believes we should go back to the basic, original Constitution. She doesn't even believe in the Amendments. When I point out that that allows for slaves she shrugs. When I point out that that would not allow for religious diversity, "Good!" She honestly thinks things would be better that way. She also believes in the Pledge. And having "under God" in it. When I point out that the Pledge wasn't around back then... shrug. "Under God" wasn't it it, she doesn't believe me.

That kind of ignorance is where most of my major problems with this whole argument stem from. No one is educated on the Pledge anymore. No one knows what it means, where it came from, when it was written, etc. That makes having kids recite it completely pointless. A waste of time. But being pointless, it also makes it harmless.

Well, the upside is that what you're talking about above is a "generation gap" issue. Eventually, enough people from that generation will die and collectively our nation will be more educated. Now, that's not going to prevent people from getting "bad" information, but as long as people are looking for information, they'll have exposure to the truth. That's really all we can ask for.

[Luce]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I think that there should be a Loyalty Oath for the Constitution,

To hell with that.

People are going to be loyal or they aren't. Having them mouth oaths won't change a damn thing.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Well, the upside is that what you're talking about above is a "generation gap" issue. Eventually, enough people from that generation will die and collectively our nation will be more educated. Now, that's not going to prevent people from getting "bad" information, but as long as people are looking for information, they'll have exposure to the truth. That's really all we can ask for.

I've met many, many people younger than myself who want the stuff you're attributing to an older generation. The "Jesus Camp" set, the Tea Partiers, etc. They babble on about the "under God" part being so important, while negating the indivisibility of our nation, and certainly show no interest in liberty and justice "for all".

[Medusa]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

To hell with that.

People are going to be loyal or they aren't. Having them mouth oaths won't change a damn thing.

It will weed out the commies in the open!

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

It will weed out the commies in the open!

In Wales we're rather proud of the fact that the red flag first flew in the UK in Abergorki, not a million miles from here...

[thalassa]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Eventually, I will have time to get to this...

You might not be surprised, but I definately have some opinions!

[okoserce]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Well, the upside is that what you're talking about above is a "generation gap" issue. Eventually, enough people from that generation will die and collectively our nation will be more educated. Now, that's not going to prevent people from getting "bad" information, but as long as people are looking for information, they'll have exposure to the truth. That's really all we can ask for.

I find this a sad but true fact..I run into it a lot and can not wait for the following generations to step in..for all the hype about how much our modern generation being the worst thing that ever happened..as a whole they are generally much more tolerant and open to others and there has never been a time where there has been a larger part of our populace who were as educated...I'm truly curious to see where things go from here when I wind up becoming the old stodgy "Well in my day..." etc etc.

I've got nothing wrong with people having faith but when it comes to our constitution (I feel it as a living document- not set in stone) we are a secular nation built on secular ideals and ideas...separation of church and state is huge and important...and it religion really should stay the heck away from politics..isn't the whole point of the tax free status bent around the idea that they not influence politics? but I digress.. There is nothing wrong with Oaths but I do agree with the above that the history and meaning behind it should be taught..history is crucial to learn about where we've been so that we can learn from it and move into the future.

[Roknrol]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

To hell with that.

People are going to be loyal or they aren't. Having them mouth oaths won't change a damn thing.

I respectfully disagree. That is exactly how brainwashing functions.

http://changingminds.org/principles/repetition.htm

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception

Our brains don't know the difference between Truth and Fiction. On top of that, our brains can't remember the context from which we heard a topic - so the topic might have been "This can never happen", but if you remember only chunks of it you can believe exactly the opposite.

Our brains are not particularly bright...they're just really good at looking like they are.

- - - Updated - - -

I've met many, many people younger than myself who want the stuff you're attributing to an older generation. The "Jesus Camp" set, the Tea Partiers, etc. They babble on about the "under God" part being so important, while negating the indivisibility of our nation, and certainly show no interest in liberty and justice "for all".

It will not be a fast process by a long shot, and there are tons of people out there that want to promote ignorance for their own designs. I didn't say it would ever be perfect, or even that it was going to be tolerable...only that it would get better

[anunitu]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

All I can say is Godwin be in the house. Because of this link..

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

I rest my fat butt,and wonder what next?

[Roknrol]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

All I can say is Godwin be in the house. Because of this link..

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

I rest my fat butt,and wonder what next?

Good, dismiss the argument because of the source. Christ, I was just referencing where the quote originally came from.

Let's have some perspective, people.

My point was that brainwashing occurs and our brains allow it to happen. <shrug>

[satanic witch]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Personally I don't say the pledge at school and I don't stand for the moment of silence and everyone respects that at my school . I think the pledge should stay for the children whose parents are in a war or the christian for the moment of silence .

[anunitu]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Just Godwins law there Rok,nothing personal. Search the reference and see what Godwins law is.

[jcaternolo]

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Here's how to keep the US on track

1) Have all citizens tested on how loyal they are to the US constitution.
2) Give these people guns
3) If our President betrays the country, these people storm the White House in force and forcibly drag him out of office.

On a serious note though, the US will only stop being corrupt if those in power choose to stop being corrupt, or they get driven out of office through information campaigns.