[quote author=Corvus link=topic=948.msg17423#msg17423 date=1290755712]
Thanks kijani ;D I already know about witches vox a friend told me about it after the nyc samhein meet. *bookmark ill go through them later, as for now im sleepy. Corvus logging off
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You're welcome, hun. I hope some of that helps.
It's a really, really cool thing, to be able to show people that you can be yourself, and you should be proud of yourself, and you should own who you are and what you're about, and never make apologies for it.
-Adam Lambert
Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
[quote author=Corvus link=topic=948.msg17414#msg17414 date=1290751960]
Gerald gardener (founder of modern wicca) said that homosexuals were cursed by the god and goddess. He was also a noted homophobe.
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If there's one thing I've learned about Gargener, it's not to take anything he said seriously. What he created is something amazing now, but I feel it was the flock who made the farm, not the shepherd.
[quote author=kijani link=topic=948.msg17419#msg17419 date=1290753206]
That is true. And unfortunate. However, there are LGBTQ people in every walk of life---Christianity, Islam...just about anything you can think of. It really depends on the community. Opinions will vary depending on not only the religious community, but literally the very people there. A friend of mine is a gay Catholic. His sister is a nun and his father is a Deacon at his church. In another church even in the same city, my friend may face a lot more problems than in the church he goes to. On the whole, I've found most nature-based religions to be more accepting of people of differing lifestyles, but there are exceptions in every walk of life. Where we usually run into issues is trying to figure out just how safe A, B, C, or D might be, because you never really know how some people will react or what their views might be.
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That's about what I expected. I'd actually be shocked to find an anti-gay pagan. Alternative religion and alternative sexuality just seem to have a kind of solidarity that's hard to explain. Still, I was curious as to how a person might reconcile the fact that homosexual sex does not "emulate the creation" in the same way as heterosexual sex. (damn, i wish i had my old Cunningham Wicca book in front of me... so much easier when I'm not paraphrasing from memory)
I suppose it's a really minor point, definitely not something in the Rede or anything. Unless you consider the physical tissue damage associated with anal sex to be breaking "harm none," but then between consenting adults of sound mind, it's not really applicable.
Be Excellent to each other - or something will Happen to you.
[quote author=CttCJim link=topic=948.msg17465#msg17465 date=1290778697]
I'd actually be shocked to find an anti-gay pagan.
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Stick around. We actually get a few floating around the forum here.
There might be *more* acceptance, in the Pagan community, of LGBTQ lifestyles but it really is not as widespread as one would expect.
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius
"The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain
"The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp
i have been keepin quiet. im straight but i have plenty of gay\lesbian\bi friends... so dont get me wrong by saying this...
does this really belong in a pagan traditions thread? i could be misunderstanding but wouldnt this say its a pagan tradition of being gay? what gods does the gay tradition support? what is it structured like? this confuses me.
this thread placed improperly can cause more generalizing that we're opposed to. im not trying to be mean. i just want you to see how some people may percieve this. i dont mean to hurt anyone i just think this may be the wrong place on the forum. and its an ask a thread... what questions are we asking... seems more of a discussion.
"Sometimes bad things happen, and theres nothing you can do about it, so why worry?" ~ Timon
What questions are we asking? A few have already been raised.
Truth is, things can be hard being both not straight and pagan. We get to come out of the closet twice, so to speak. It's not that it's a separate tradition, just another facet of a complex identity. For example, how do you deal with balancing masculine and feminine energies when you are with someone of the same sex?
And if someone is having trouble, maybe we can offer support.
Ciuld be it fits somewhere else, though. Where would you put it?
[quote author=Dufonce link=topic=948.msg17478#msg17478 date=1290783919]
i have been keepin quiet. im straight but i have plenty of gay\lesbian\bi friends... so dont get me wrong by saying this...
does this really belong in a pagan traditions thread? i could be misunderstanding but wouldnt this say its a pagan tradition of being gay? what gods does the gay tradition support? what is it structured like? this confuses me.
this thread placed improperly can cause more generalizing that we're opposed to. im not trying to be mean. i just want you to see how some people may percieve this. i dont mean to hurt anyone i just think this may be the wrong place on the forum. and its an ask a thread... what questions are we asking... seems more of a discussion.
[/quote]
Its about Paganism--specifically about being gay and pagan...and is therefore perfectly on topic. Particularly in light of the idea (should the topic come up) that there are specifically gay traditions and groups within the Pagan community. Furthermore, how much discussion an OP is cool with in their thread is up to them--and considering this OP happens to be longtime moderator on this forum, I don't see that being a problem.
ETA: The board description for this section is as follows--Discussion of contemporary Pagan paths, from recon to eclectic and topics of interest in the Pagan community. TBH, I'v been moving more stuff *to* this section that should have been put here in the first place...than moving out of it that shouldn't. But just to clear up any confusion, I changed the title of the board.
“You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom
“We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee
"We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History
"Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett
Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
Kijani,
I'm also full of questions about how understanding of the divine plays into being gay or lesbian. I know you can't speak for a gay man, but how does being lesbian affect your perception of the Divine Masculine? Heck, the Divine, period? Do you feel a need for a sense of balance?
For some people, like my BIL, I've seen it lead to thinking of the energy of their own gender as creative, and the opposite as destructive (last time we spoke about religion, he felt drawn to Cernunnos and Kali). What is your take on that?
[quote author=Dufonce link=topic=948.msg17478#msg17478 date=1290783919]
i have been keepin quiet. im straight but i have plenty of gay\lesbian\bi friends... so dont get me wrong by saying this...
does this really belong in a pagan traditions thread? i could be misunderstanding but wouldnt this say its a pagan tradition of being gay? what gods does the gay tradition support? what is it structured like? this confuses me.
this thread placed improperly can cause more generalizing that we're opposed to. im not trying to be mean. i just want you to see how some people may percieve this. i dont mean to hurt anyone i just think this may be the wrong place on the forum. and its an ask a thread... what questions are we asking... seems more of a discussion.
[/quote]
Actually, several questions have already been raised. This thread does not say that it's a Pagan tradition to be gay, or that there are specific gods that we support. I never said that. What I said is that sexuality can have a big impact on the way that we carry ourselves, and thus a big impact on our personal spirituality as well. Culture affects spirituality and religion just as much as anything else does.
[quote author=PharaohKatt link=topic=948.msg17487#msg17487 date=1290785026]
Truth is, things can be hard being both not straight and pagan. We get to come out of the closet twice, so to speak. It's not that it's a separate tradition, just another facet of a complex identity.
And if someone is having trouble, maybe we can offer support.
[/quote]
This right here. Well said.
[quote author=Deseret link=topic=948.msg17518#msg17518 date=1290790501]
Kijani,
I'm also full of questions about how understanding of the divine plays into being gay or lesbian. I know you can't speak for a gay man, but how does being lesbian affect your perception of the Divine Masculine? Heck, the Divine, period? Do you feel a need for a sense of balance?
For some people, like my BIL, I've seen it lead to thinking of the energy of their own gender as creative, and the opposite as destructive (last time we spoke about religion, he felt drawn to Cernunnos and Kali). What is your take on that?
[/quote]
I think that changes from person to person (just as opinions do on just about anything under the Pagan umbrella when you ask different people), but for me personally? I still feel that need for a sense of balance, yes. I think balance is very important. I have your BIL's outlook, actually, and that thought process helps balance things out pretty easily. For others, it may not change their perception of the divine at all, but it really just depends on who you speak to. The way I see it, sexuality is a part of us. It affects us to our core (several people have already mentioned Gardener's stance, for example), and this is very important. For me, it affects the way that I view the gods/goddesses that I do identify with.
Does that make sense?
It's a really, really cool thing, to be able to show people that you can be yourself, and you should be proud of yourself, and you should own who you are and what you're about, and never make apologies for it.
-Adam Lambert
Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
Makes perfect sense...thanks hun!
Found this on witchvox. There are a bunch of other sites around the net, but this is a list witchvox has for Gay Pagan groups, etc:
http://www.witchvox.com/lx/lx_gay.html
It's a really, really cool thing, to be able to show people that you can be yourself, and you should be proud of yourself, and you should own who you are and what you're about, and never make apologies for it.
-Adam Lambert
Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools
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