Sexual assault victims=privileged?

[Medusa]

Oh boy. This is going to be a touchy subject. Why? Because I like to rile up the peeps and drive you nuts! Anyways. I was reading this article on Salon.com.
George Will, the Washington Post columnist believes *and let me quote this*

And here's some more juicy juice for you to swallow:

crazy sauce here


Now. What's the debate? We all know sexual assault is bad. We get it. We abhor it.

But!

Let's pretend this is a thread with absolutely no holds bar honesty going on in it. Let's pretend this little box of thread we get to tell the way we perceive things is our truth for a moment. Now some vital questions I want to ask:

~Do you feel there is an underlying feeling of 'privilege' from sexual assault victims? Not proof. Not facts. I'm asking for that gut level feeling you know 'may' be wrong, but you feel you might think is an inkling going on under the surface. Or not.

~Does being a victim of sexual assault allow you to be more easily offended? Or do you see this in others who are claiming sexual assault?

~While we are talking about assault: Is looking and making ick remarks to a person count for sexual assault?

~Is making an impaired decision to engage in sex and later regretting it because you were drunk while the other person was not as drunk mean it was sexual assault? (I ask this specifically because all those I was drunk and he/she took advantage of me because I was drunk is probably more accurately stated as: We were both drunk and I might have been drunker and we made impaired decisions. One where I mind but he/she doesn't seem to mind) Because let's be honest here. Most of those I was drunk stories, the other person was NOT completely sober either. It's more likely both were drunk and that person just was a tad less drunk then you.

And hey, if this thread touches a deep painful note in your history. Back off. Go read another thread. Then come back. Not everyone will understand your back story. Not everyone will care. I would just like to know what people are 'really' feeling about this and not just a wall of text of facts. Let's real talk!




*crosses fingers.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

Let's pretend this is a thread with absolutely no holds bar honesty going on in it. Let's pretend this little box of thread we get to tell the way we perceive things is our truth for a moment. Now some vital questions I want to ask:

I strongly encourage that everyone also pretend that they are diplomats charged with presenting their opinions honestly and tactfully. After all, I'm pretending to aim



at all of you.

Anyway on to the questions and apologies in advance Medusa but I'm just gonna assign numbers to them instead of quote them all.

1) No. However, I know a psych student once who mentioned people occasionally looked at those with physical handicaps and thought they were privileged. If a person can envy someone who will never walk then it's not surprising to me that people may look at victims of sexual assault where the harm is far less obvious and believe them privileged.

2) I've seen people claiming sexual assault who were easy to offend and people claiming sexual assault who were not easy to offend and all told, I can find records of both on this site in public areas if I ever work up the motivation. People react to trauma in different ways. Since people react to everything in different ways, this is pretty normal.

3) Off the cuff, comments can (depending heavily on context, I refuse to make an absolute statement here) be classed as sexual harassment. Sexual assault requires accompanying deeds. Both are wrong but the two are not identical and should not be handled in an identical manner.

4) It's context dependent and a legal and moral cluster-f***. Sorry, I don't think there can be a hard fast rule here morally and while hard and fast legal restrictions can be imposed, no matter how careful the phrasing, there will probably come a time when enforcing those regulations absolutely would result in either letting go someone that you think should be punished or punishing someone that you think should be let free.

[thalassa]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

So...I'm going to preface this by saaying that 1) I'm on m.y fone @ the ER with goober #2... also that 2) I was raped by a date at 15 and 3) I volunteered as a sexual assault victim advocate for almost three years in the military

I'm gonna go thru these in order but i can't cut and paste on my phone (bear in mind I should have been in bed over 2 hours ago and I've been up since 4 am...cut me some slack on grammar spelling & making sense).

I think it depends on what one means by privelege. Does it confer a certain status or "Authenticity" of experience? In some groups, sadly, yes it seems to. Generally speaking though, no. there is still too much shame and stigma attached to sex and sexual assault, too much victim blaming, for most people to waltz around anouncing they are rape victims. I'm mostly okay with it because it happened nearly 2 deczades ago, and I've been in counseling for it, and I've gone through training in how to talk about it.

I think this depends on a few things...1) how recently the assault occured, 2) how traumatized the individual was by the event, and 3)how easily offended the person is in general anyhow. Rape and abuse scenes in movies and books, for example, don't bother me (when there is no proper context? They might *annoy* me, but they aren't a trigger or anything (and yeah, I'm one of the people that think trigger warnings are pandering)). To some extent, I think its natural to have reactions to things, at least for a time, but I also don't think it is society's responsibility to make sure the world is bubblewrapped.

And no, I don't consider inappropriate commentary to be assault...harassment, certainly, but assault takes touching.

Regretting drunk sex is not a valid complaint for sexual assault, IMO...its a failure to take responsibility for one's actions. BUT one must also be wary here of minimizing the problem of predatory behavior by men AND women in hunting a person and feeding them enough booze that they are physically unable to consent. I knew a girl that did this in my time in the military--specifically, she targeted married guys, got them so drunk they barely knew their name and fucked them...if she'd been a guy, there would have been complaints, but as a girl, the stigma for guys to come forward was too much.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

On behalf of the entire staff, I'd like to apologize for the inconvenience, having this thread closed prematurely and with no explanation. Truth be told, we were trying to figure out the who and why of its closure. It was, indeed, inadvertent. So, I'm reopening it.

Again, sorry everyone!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

1) No. I think there's still a lot of stigma there. in most cases victims still get blamed and most women still do not come forward, at least not publicly. To me, that doesn't indicate privilege.

2) I agree with Masked here. Some people will get more offended and some will not. That's just the nature of traumatic experiences.

I do tend to agree with Thal that trigger warnings are a bit pandering. Sometimes it seems like a knee-jerk reaction on behalf of the online feminist community. It doesn't overly bother me though. I've seen someone react quite negatively to something very tame (it was just a scene in a movie that involved masturbation...it didn't even involve consent because there was no one else involved), so I guess there are people who have very strong triggers. I think at some point we have to draw a line and understand that almost anything can be traumatic for -someone-, but I think for now this is just a reaction to the growing awareness of rape and the different ways people feel about it.

3) No, it's not assault. It's harassment. It should not be treated the same way as assault, but it should be strongly discouraged. I think this one is up to us...we need to make in unacceptable. You can't really ban sexual harassment in a non-workplace context without getting into some slippery slope territory as far as free speech is concerned, so you can't really punish people for it unless those words are clearly meant to incite violence.

4) I'm with Thal here. There comes a point when we need to accept responsibility for our actions. I think it's important to keep spreading the idea that it's not a good idea to have sex with someone who is more drunk than you, but I don't think it can really be rape. Many of us, male and female, make very questionable decisions while we are drunk, but they're still decisions. I think the focus here needs to be on a) not getting so drunk that you do things you regret, b) being on a buddy system so that you don't drive drunk, have sex with people we wouldn't normally have sex with, start fights, etc (basically, look out for each other...it's something my friends and I have always done for each other, male or female), and c) learning how to walk away from drunk people. I'm already seeing this a lot here. There is an ad campaign at the moment about making bad decisions when your'e drunk targeted at young people of all kinds.

[Amadi]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

All my points of view on the questions asked are expressed perfectly via Danie^, but if I may express a different view: I hate how sexual assault has been stereotyped more towards a particular gender (whether rightfully or not) and while it's not exactly classed as a privilege, depending on the gender of said victim they will be treated differently, be it in a more concerned way or with a more negative conduct..

[Heka]

On behalf of the entire staff, I'd like to apologize for the inconvenience, having this thread closed prematurely and with no explanation. Truth be told, we were trying to figure out the who and why of its closure. It was, indeed, inadvertent. So, I'm reopening it.

Again, sorry everyone!

Thanks Chain, now my bit:

*Im not going to touch on the Privilege bit atm, I may later, but that staff meeting fried my brain.

What I am going to mention is that I once got so drunk I let a man stay in my room, and he had sex with me. I say that because it was completely passive, I dont actually remember, I think I was more or less passed out.

For a long time I just blamed myself for being stupid and that I should've taken reaponsibility for my actions etc. I felt guilty, and weak. Recently ive come to the decision that I was indeed raped. The men I was drinking with continuously poured alcohol down my throat, and this guy held my hair away from my face while I puked, then had sex with me. I hadnt thought about it much till recently, when I was contacted by him on fb. I didnt know his name, I didnt know who he was, but I worked it out and I wish I never had. He was sleazy and asked questions I didnt want to hear from him, about open marriages and such. It disgusted me. I never want to hear from him again, I dont want to think about it. I dont like talking about it.

My point in this is that it took a long time for me to admit that this had happened to me, that I was a statistic, 1 of the 5. And it was hard.

And it still is. I probably didnt need to tell the whole story, but ive never done it before and felt that now was the right time.

But I would hazard, based on my own experience, that it could be more than 1 in 5. There was a hell of a lot of drunk sex going on where I lived. People are too scared to admit that rape happened to them.

[Roknrol]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

Let's pretend this is a thread with absolutely no holds bar honesty going on in it. Let's pretend this little box of thread we get to tell the way we perceive things is our truth for a moment. Now some vital questions I want to ask:

~Do you feel there is an underlying feeling of 'privilege' from sexual assault victims? Not proof. Not facts. I'm asking for that gut level feeling you know 'may' be wrong, but you feel you might think is an inkling going on under the surface. Or not.

No, however I do think that 1) A lot of people claim sexual abuse because they're unwilling to admit that they made mistakes and 2) a lot of people that use that as an excuse every time they don't like the topic of conversation.

Before any of you gets too uptight, I myself have been sexually assaulted, although not to the extend of some others here.

No, their criminal involvement was not their fault. Nor was it mine or any random man's fault. It was the criminals fault.

~Does being a victim of sexual assault allow you to be more easily offended?

Yes.

Or do you see this in others who are claiming sexual assault?

Erm...yes? Yes, yes yes. I have been told that I'm not allowed to voice an opinion on abortion because I haven't been raped. I also think that there's...well...there should be a 3rd option that isn't rape and isn't not-rape.

Now, before I get started, consent is consent is consent...if you haven't got it, you're wrong. However, I do think that there's a big difference from "rape" and "I got so drunk that I didn't know what happened." Why? Well, because I've known plenty of women that were more than happy to "get it on" while they were still in the bar and changed their minds on their way home....and I've known others that have passed out before they changed their mind. Or mostly passed out. Or weren't even capable of forming a cogent sentence, much less resisting. Yes, it is still non-consensual sex and it's still wrong. But there is a big damned difference between, "Yeah, she was hanging all over me for the last 5 hours, sexual innuendos, grabbing my junk, then we went home and she changed her mind" (of course, what I'm specifically referring to is the "changing of the mind" without the "mentioning of this fact" - ie, due to just being too wasted to say something) and the actual full-on assault with a deadly weapon sort of thing.

Are both wrong? Yes. Should both be treated the same? I don't think so. And I think that those "fuzzy" lines have given a lot of women the impression that they were raped when, in fact, they just changed their mind (sometimes after the fact).

My mother claims she was raped by my father. That story changes depending on how she feels about discussing him at the time - sometimes it was multiple times, sometimes she just loved him so much that she agreed to sex without really "agreeing"...so sometimes it's rape, and sometimes it's consensual...all depending on her frame of mind.

I have ALSO seen the "I've been raped" crowd act like complete and utter whores when they're out in public with their friends, despite their earlier brush(s) with the horrors and realities of dealing with drunk people, which sometimes shows me that their "offense" is quite selective indeed.

~While we are talking about assault: Is looking and making ick remarks to a person count for sexual assault?

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but no, I don't think so. If you don't want to be seen, wear a Burka (if you dress like a whore, expect to be looked at). I think that comments (regardless of who says them or where they are) can be considered harrassment, but in order for something to be "assault" something has to touch you other than my words.

~Is making an impaired decision to engage in sex and later regretting it because you were drunk while the other person was not as drunk mean it was sexual assault? (I ask this specifically because all those I was drunk and he/she took advantage of me because I was drunk is probably more accurately stated as: We were both drunk and I might have been drunker and we made impaired decisions. One where I mind but he/she doesn't seem to mind) Because let's be honest here. Most of those I was drunk stories, the other person was NOT completely sober either. It's more likely both were drunk and that person just was a tad less drunk then you.

No, I don't think so. I think that when you decide to become impaired you have accepted the risk that you may do things you wouldn't otherwise do. Of course, roofies and equivalent change the nature of the question.

Yes, I've regretted banging some pretty insane chicks. No, that doesn't mean I was raped.

And hey, if this thread touches a deep painful note in your history. Back off. Go read another thread. Then come back. Not everyone will understand your back story. Not everyone will care. I would just like to know what people are 'really' feeling about this and not just a wall of text of facts. Let's real talk!

I hope this thread stays open...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

All my points of view on the questions asked are expressed perfectly via Danie^, but if I may express a different view: I hate how sexual assault has been stereotyped more towards a particular gender (whether rightfully or not) and while it's not exactly classed as a privilege, depending on the gender of said victim they will be treated differently, be it in a more concerned way or with a more negative conduct..

Agreed. Sexual assault on men is rarely taken seriously and is also strongly underreported. On one hand, women aren't taken all that seriously and are often blamed when they get raped, but men are also not taken seriously and get treated like they should be happy that they got laid. Things need to change in both cases.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks Chain, now my bit:

*Im not going to touch on the Privilege bit atm, I may later, but that staff meeting fried my brain.

What I am going to mention is that I once got so drunk I let a man stay in my room, and he had sex with me. I say that because it was completely passive, I dont actually remember, I think I was more or less passed out.

For a long time I just blamed myself for being stupid and that I should've taken reaponsibility for my actions etc. I felt guilty, and weak. Recently ive come to the decision that I was indeed raped. The men I was drinking with continuously poured alcohol down my throat, and this guy held my hair away from my face while I puked, then had sex with me. I hadnt thought about it much till recently, when I was contacted by him on fb. I didnt know his name, I didnt know who he was, but I worked it out and I wish I never had. He was sleazy and asked questions I didnt want to hear from him, about open marriages and such. It disgusted me. I never want to hear from him again, I dont want to think about it. I dont like talking about it.

My point in this is that it took a long time for me to admit that this had happened to me, that I was a statistic, 1 of the 5. And it was hard.

And it still is. I probably didnt need to tell the whole story, but ive never done it before and felt that now was the right time.

But I would hazard, based on my own experience, that it could be more than 1 in 5. There was a hell of a lot of drunk sex going on where I lived. People are too scared to admit that rape happened to them.

That's really rough. I want to make it really clear that when I mentioned "taking responsibility for actions" that I didn't mean situations like this, but rather consenting to sex while drunk that someone may not normally do sober. If someone is passed out or so out of it that they can't give a straight answer, that can't be considered consent. I'm really sorry that happened to you

[Roknrol]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

Agreed. Sexual assault on men is rarely taken seriously and is also strongly underreported. On one hand, women aren't taken all that seriously and are often blamed when they get raped, but men are also not taken seriously and get treated like they should be happy that they got laid. Things need to change in both cases.

- - - Updated - - -



That's really rough. I want to make it really clear that when I mentioned "taking responsibility for actions" that I didn't mean situations like this, but rather consenting to sex while drunk that someone may not normally do sober. If someone is passed out or so out of it that they can't give a straight answer, that can't be considered consent. I'm really sorry that happened to you

Agreed....

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

Privilege: While certain sectors of the feminist community may use sexual assault as an excuse for trigger warnings and censorship, sexual assault victims themselves are not privileged. In fact, they are often the subject of scrutiny and victim blaming, which is one of the reasons so many victims never come forward.
Offense: This one is a little tricky. On one hand, it is important to be sensitive and supportive to a loved one who has been through a traumatic sexual assault. On the other hand, I don't think that society at large needs to bubble wrap itself to avoid offending or "triggering" victims.
Ick remarks: No, that is not assault. If the person has made it clear that said remarks are making them uncomfortable, then it is sexual harassment, which is still terrible.
Drunk sex: This depends on the context. For instance, Heka's experience was an assault. And Heka, I am very sorry that you had to go through that. That sounds horrible. If the sober person is acting in a predatory manner- getting the victim drunk so that they will be too intoxicated to say no- then yes, assault. Or if the drunk person is so intoxicated that they are passed out, yes, assault. There is no possible way that they could voice consent if they are unconscious. However, if the drunk person is enthusiastic and aware that they are having sex with the less drunk/sober person, no, that's not assault. Of course, there's plenty of grey area in between. Sometimes it's best to just play it safe.

[Heka]

That's really rough. I want to make it really clear that when I mentioned "taking responsibility for actions" that I didn't mean situations like this, but rather consenting to sex while drunk that someone may not normally do sober. If someone is passed out or so out of it that they can't give a straight answer, that can't be considered consent. I'm really sorry that happened to you

Yeah I know thanks

[Roknrol]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

Drunk sex: This depends on the context. For instance, Heka's experience was an assault. And Heka, I am very sorry that you had to go through that. That sounds horrible. If the sober person is acting in a predatory manner- getting the victim drunk so that they will be too intoxicated to say no- then yes, assault. Or if the drunk person is so intoxicated that they are passed out, yes, assault. There is no possible way that they could voice consent if they are unconscious. However, if the drunk person is enthusiastic and aware that they are having sex with the less drunk/sober person, no, that's not assault. Of course, there's plenty of grey area in between. Sometimes it's best to just play it safe.

This seems to be the grey zone...I think everyone is fairly onboard with the rest of it (at least so far).

But here's the thing: In the world that we live in, bad things happen. Bad things happen all of the freaking time. It's horrible when it happens, but it does happen. And people make stupid decisions all of the freaking time for stupid reasons. And sometimes they change their minds. And sometimes it's too late to do so. If you don't give your consent? It's rape. If you gave your consent and now oops the condom has broken you aren't allowed to change your mind until we invent time-travel.

Passed out? No consent = assault, period. I don't think anyone is debating this either

Of course, I guess I'm one of those people that doesn't do many things to excess...I've never gotten so drunk that I did (or said) something that I wouldn't otherwise do (or say). It's never happened to me. My first experience with "losing control", as in, behaving in a manner that is other than I would do sober, was when I tried LSD. And I learned that LSD is something I cannot trust myself to do without a babysitter. Bad experience? Yes. But I was smart enough to minimize the impact before I took it. If you don't know how you behave on a pint of Tequila, my suggestion is that unless you're in safe place with people you can trust, you probably shouldn't do that.

I'm really sorry if that perspective offends people...I know this is a touchy subject, and I know it's not a popular view. But I think that there is a definite line between "rape" and "mistake", and I think that a LOT of people try to use the latter when they should be using the former.

The best analogy I can give you is this: A few years ago I realized that I had been lying to myself - like, a lot. Every time I'd think, "I should go and do this chore ______ which is a pain in the ass." I would follow it in my head with "I don't have time" or some other line of horseshit. Sometimes "I don't wanna" is a perfectly valid reason, and I'd rather be honest (at least with myself). I don't "like" that answer...makes me sound like a lazy prick, but you know, maybe the Truth is just what I need to motivate me? And if the Truth doesn't motivate me to do better, how can I say that it's important? Hopefully that's not too confusing

[Medusa]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

I personally don't drink with anyone I don't trust. Because I just don't want to learn a lesson I'm going to be kicking myself in the ass for years on down the line. That's just me. I won't make a judgement on anyone else because I know it would actually hurt their feelings. And I would rather just make a judgement call on myself.

Mind you I learned these lessons about trust as a child. So I had many years of acting with distrust to keep me safe in my adult years.

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

I get what you guys are saying. It is important to moderate your intake if you aren't with trustworthy people. Personally, I've never gone over my limit either. Never blacked out, never said/did anything I regretted (not even with LSD :P)
However, there is still most certainly blame on the shoulders of whoever takes advantage of an incoherently drunk person. As for a person who is so drunk that the "sex" was rape, no questions asked, I don't believe that the victim should be blamed for getting raped. For one thing, you don't always know who to trust. Many rapes are instigated by people the victim thought were his/her friends. It's horrible, but it happens. Besides that, even if the victim was at some random party, the worst you could say of them is that they drank too much with people they shouldn't have trusted, but that does not mean that the victim was somehow asking to be assaulted.
But, "don't drink yourself silly around people you don't know" does = sound advice.