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    Welfare State

    I personally believe welfare has been used way too much especially for people who don't really deserve it. I think welfare makes people too dependent on the government and we the people, should be independent when we live our lives. What do you think? Because I believe welfare shouldn't be used or at least only used for people that actually need it because I know people end up losing their jobs and have bad luck but I don't think one should get it if they get a higher pay check the more a family has kids.

    #2
    Re: Welfare State

    I am a great believer in Social Security as it used to be called over here in the UK. You can tell a lot about a society in the way it treats its children, the poor, the sick and those without work.

    Why should we be independent? Don't you stop to help others when they're down? Don't you try and do something for those who cannot help themselves?

    Those who are unable to work should be helped. Those who can work should be helped to find work. Those who are sick should be helped. Children have a right to expect a decent standard of living, regardless of how many there are in a family - are we seriously going to punish them because of numbers? Because - with an ageing population in the west - we are going to be glad of those children to support us, one day. They may be our nurses, carers, bus drivers, police etc.

    If there is money for the endless wars and military interventions, then there is - in my opinion anyway - sure as hell enough money to support those who need it.
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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      #3
      Re: Welfare State

      Its understandable they should not abuse welfare. It should not matter how much kids you have. If you have time to spend making kids you could be having a job and be paying things on your own. One of the teachers I remember said they walked into a store and the parents had expensive stuff and there kids where wearing cheap holy cloths and no shoes. If that's what they use to pay with the money you get from the government then you should not have kids.

      - - - Updated - - -

      its understandable if you have a disability or your at the age where you cant work then it should be used but its better not to screw the government in America for stupied expensive crap that you can buy on your own that's why I want a good job so I don't screw over the tax payers over for there money to buy things. If I had a disability I would still work because of the fact I don't feel right about taking money the hard working people in the U.S make.

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        #4
        Re: Welfare State

        In the UK it's an unhappy fact that many of the people on benefits and who have to use foodbanks are actually hard-working and IN WORK.

        Also there are those who were hard working and in work when their children were born and then - wham! Because all of us are only a heart beat away from disability, unemployment and everything associated therewith.

        Part of the problem is that wages are too low. The disabled are discriminated against in finding work - yes, ikumilover90 you might say you would still work if you had a disability but what if nobody wanted to employ you? What if there were - quite literally - no jobs?
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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          #5
          Re: Welfare State

          I have very mixed feelings about this. I have personally met and talked to people deliberately taking advantage of the system. But I've also met and talked with people that really needed the help. And when the numbers are that high it can be hard to sift through the differences. I do believe that society has a responsibility to take care of those in need though. And we can never overlook that because we are afraid of someone taking advantage.
          We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

          I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
          It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
          Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
          -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

          Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

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            #6
            Re: Welfare State

            As someone who has a disability I'm very glad I still have my job and I know a lot of people with disabilities who'd dearly love to work but can't. Either because they can't afford getting an education, and due to their disability they can't do manual labour, or that they can't find anyone willing to employ them since they can only work say 15-20 hours or less a week.

            I'd also greatly love to know how we should define "deserving". How do we judge if someone if truly "in need" or just faking it?

            Finally I'd like to dispute the myth of independence. None of us, no matter what are independent. Unless you grown your own food, make your own clothes - and the fabric of which those clothes are sewn, have build your own house, you are not independent. In fact no one on this forum can say they are independent since to be here we are depending on phone and electricity companies to deliver electricity and Internet connection.

            Why does it matter if you get the money you live off from the state or from a job? Here people usually say that well we all pay taxes. Yes but that paycheck you get from your job, someone else paid for that too. If you work in a store it's the costumers, if you work for an IT-firm it's whoever buys what your company is offering, and so on. Your money is always provided by someone else.
            But I give something back to my employer, I give them my work. Well if we stick to people with disabilities for a moment, a lot of them do charity work. They offer what they can, free of charge. Why because none of us likes to sit idle. It's human nature to want to contribute. You'll always find a few odd ones that doesn't but most of us do, we really do. If we're permitted.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
            If there is money for the endless wars and military interventions, then there is - in my opinion anyway - sure as hell enough money to support those who need it.
            Particularly this.
            The US has a military budget the equivalent of the rest of the top-10 countries put together, I can hunt down the exact figure if you insists but it's effing huge, and they complain about the expenses to people on benefits? The priorities of the US population never ceases to astound me :=L:.
            Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

            An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

            "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

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              #7
              Re: Welfare State

              I had 2 jobs and live in a rented room and still could not make it. I have Cal Fresh *food stamps on an ebt card*.
              I ain't no welfare queen. I'm just trying to eat some damn bologna.
              Satan is my spirit animal

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                #8
                Re: Welfare State

                Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                I had 2 jobs and live in a rented room and still could not make it. I have Cal Fresh *food stamps on an ebt card*.
                I ain't no welfare queen. I'm just trying to eat some damn bologna.
                In my view the real recipients of money they aren't entitled to include politicians and their cronies, and the bloody bankers!
                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Welfare State

                  Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                  In my view the real recipients of money they aren't entitled to include politicians and their cronies, and the bloody bankers!
                  Oh yes, how much was it that was used on bailing out the banks when their fast making money schemes failed? This goes for both US and Europe. Funny how the well-they-got-themselves-into-this-now-they-can-get-themselves-out mysteriously didn't apply in this case, isn't it?
                  Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                  An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                  "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Welfare State

                    Originally posted by MoonRaven View Post
                    Oh yes, how much was it that was used on bailing out the banks when their fast making money schemes failed? This goes for both US and Europe. Funny how the well-they-got-themselves-into-this-now-they-can-get-themselves-out mysteriously didn't apply in this case, isn't it?
                    It never does... only the poor are feckless, the elite are 'unlucky' or 'misunderstood.'
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Welfare State

                      First off, one would have to define what they mean by "welfare". Different groups in the US use it differently to turn their agenda. IMO, "welfare"=TANF, which is a specific government program or a combination of food stamps and Medicare when they are talking about "welfare". Others might also include the EIC, SSI, housing vouchers, Head Start, the child tax credit, etc (basically, any program that seeks to make sure that income disparity doesn't unduly burden a family financially).

                      Statistically speaking, most people that are on "welfare" (TANF, food stamps, Medicare) use it exactly as it is meant to be used. As short-term temporary help or as assistance to supplement their income for "filling in the gaps" of lower wage labor. The minority that don't shouldn't disqualifiy the majority that do from getting the help they need. The majority that are using "welfare" (which usually isn't anything close to what people think it is... the whole "welfare queen" stereotype has never really been true and welfare reform in the 90's made long term use and abuse much more difficult...plus, most states have a cap on family size for benefit reciept) have been previously and will be again or still are EMPLOYED TAX-PAYERS.

                      SNAP statistics
                      TANF statistics
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #12
                        Re: Welfare State

                        Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                        It never does... only the poor are feckless, the elite are 'unlucky' or 'misunderstood.'
                        Ye gods, don't even LET me get started on oil and big ag subsidies...

                        ...or lets call them what they really are, corporate welfare.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

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                          #13
                          Re: Welfare State

                          In regards to welfare, the federal government here in Australia is attempting to slash a large number of legitimate disabilities from the qualification list for receiving benefits - which means that it's possible for thousands of disabled people who have been out of work for a number of years will be stuck in a situation of attempting to find work while a) disabled and b) having a 5+ year gap in their employment record - two things that prospective employers don't like.

                          Most of the controversy surrounding the cuts comes from what the government considers to be "legitimate disabilities". I agree that there are dole bludgers everywhere who play up injuries or "disabilities", but I also think that it's the responsibility of the government to provide a support system for the vulnerable.

                          I also agree with MoonRaven - the perpetuation of the myth of independence is something that I see, living abroad, in a great many Americans. There sometimes seems to be such a focus on "not trusting the government" and obsessing about "socialism" from some Americans that they're missing the fact that people in their own country are suffering and the only place that these people will ever catch a break from *is* the government.

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                            #14
                            Re: Welfare State

                            To clear up a nasty myth, most Americans do not want the poor tossed out on the street. There are some nutjobs who do, just like some nutjobs who imagine a perfect world of peace and bubblegum is possible for human societies where lobotomies aren't the norm.

                            What we disagree on is HOW to help them. To sum it up very crudely, one side wants to help by giving them money (theory: they need food and shelter now), the other side wants to help by giving them jobs (theory: they need to have a future).

                            One side tries to support the poor by giving them money, the other gives incentives to business to expand and employ more people. Most people are rational enough to see they need both, and fall somewhere in between. They tend to favor a mixed bag - although government incentives to business aren't well understood, so these have been demonized.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #15
                              Re: Welfare State

                              I'm going to give my personal experience with this. Because rarely do people want to speak up about such a seemingly embarrassing subject. But I am neither embarrassed or a proud princess. I have worked every single year since I was 18. The 2 main jobs I had were each over 8 years. And after that, I had for a period of time 3 jobs at once just to make up for that one job. And it was manual labor at one. I actually threw lumbar on pallets. 5 months later I had a heart attack. After that I was told to ease up on my work and stress. I got a job as a waitress just to have a job. Well I'm now back in management and left the waitressing job. I did this because I now know this new company is a company I actually want to stay with long term again. And sadly I have to work my way up. But at this point in my life I'm in management but I don't want to be at the top any longer. That sort of stress is not worth my health, considering I have not one single soul to take care of me in event of illness.

                              I am struggling with money. I pinch every penny as those of you who know me and my frugal ways. I live in a room I rented and I even finally gave up my car and take two buses to work for a total of 2 hours each way. Sometimes for a 5 hour shift. Because I need to work and I like this job.

                              I get $105 a month for food. And I budget that down to the penny to make it work. I don't eat meat other than bologna and chorizo. I haven't had a steak in over a year. I don't go out and party. I don't drink. Etc etc.

                              I use that money with no shame. The same way I use my health insurance to pay for my $198 monthly prescription bill. Also with no shame.

                              I've earned every penny I've had pulled from my wages since I was 18. I have no problem now asking for assistance while I try to pull my life back together.

                              The truth is most people on assistance with food and health are hard working individuals. You don't see them because they are all on the bus with me, unable to afford a car because of gas prices. (mind you my car was from 1993). We are the ones who look darn tired at the end of a day hours after you are home. I take the 2 buses home and I still need to walk 15 minutes home after that. I'm tired. I don't got time to feel entitled or like royalty because I need to find a way to eat.

                              But if you'd like to give me a crown with pink sparkles, I won't pass it up!
                              Satan is my spirit animal

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