Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

[pkanella]

[Shahaku]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

You have to remember that just because it can't be proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. While science does a really good job with physical things, they have a much harder time with the non physical.

Mythology is possibly the hardest. You could look at the myths as exaggerations of actual events. Or metaphors. But if you honestly believe in them as actual occurrences, one thing I would consider is that, in general, we've left magic behind. With the development of science, most people don't believe and don't care, so they overlook what magic is still in this world and they don't put forth the effort to make the connection to bring more in, so we don't see big magical acts anymore because there just isn't as much of it there.

[Historyforall]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Magic and science are much the same. Instead of making a potion to cure dry feet we go to the store and buy a cream that was made much the same way. What is considered mysterious often becomes mundane. I have always felt what drives out so many eager new pagans is realizing that its not all dark and mysterious after all.

Even our ancestors understood the sun and moon were not living gods but important to their survival. Giving them names and human attributes made it easy to teach others of the role they played in life. The sun to give life and grow things the moon to govern the tides and provide light at night when everything goes dark.

Being in tune with the living physical world around us is more important than deciding what to call that energy that you feel, that surrounds us, that sometimes calls to us.

Here is where all your beliefs can be developed. Study physics to know true magic, study psychology to understand the brain and study nature and the universe to understand spirituality.

Listen to the world around you.

[Alienist]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I think it's partly true that magic is science that one cannot understand but I also believe there are magical things and spritual power that cannot be explained with science, at least with our science anyway. Thewy are similar but different. After all there were science gods as well as magic gods.

[thalassa]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

First, I'd say that you don't have to believe in "the literal existence of living, breathing pagan goddesses and gods" to be Pagan...or, for that matter, to even believe in gods and goddesses. I would also suggest that a literal belief in mythology is not required either. It has been my observation and experience that Pagans run the gamut to from atheist (having no belief in the gods) to hard polytheist (a literal believe in actual, multiple, and distinct dieties that interact with us directly)...though most Pagans, in my observation, tend to land somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of belief as panthiests and/or soft-polytheists*.

Secondly, I'd say that Paganism is, at its heart, an experiential religion. Its about praxis more than doxa. Paganism is polythetic, there is no quick and dirty definition of Paganism (or for that matter, Christianity, or any other highly complex subject). What makes you Pagan or not isn't any specific one belief or practice, but the sum total of the whole...which is the same reason that few people's Paganisms look the same.

Thirdly, as a science professional with a degree in biology I completely accept major theories such as evolution, etc, as our best answer to questions like "where did we come from?" I see them as completely compatible with a non-literal belief in mythology and the gods....and even with a literal belief in gods but a literary take on mythology. Pagans tend to not be "people of the book"...but rather people of the Library of Congress. I have met very few Pagans with the attitude that their chosen mythology is a sort of literal history or anything...I'm sure they exist (after all, I have known a few), but its not a very widely held belief, even among those folks that are hard polytheists**.



* And there are lots of ways these ideas can be intertwined and mixed up---for example, I am a pantheist in belief--I believe that "god" is the universe and the universe is "god" (and that the word we use, "god" has a whole lot of cultural baggage that creates problems when trying to discuss "god") but in practice, I'm an agnostic soft-polytheist....I literally worship individual deities that I'm pretty sure don't actually exist in a literal sense.

**The prevailing view that I have seen here (on the occasions where I've asked) is that myths are a literary interpretation of history or that myths are meant to be a mystical structure/framework for spirit work/journeying. (Which of course, begs the "it is *real*" or "is it all in your head" debate, to which I say...."if the end result is the same, does it matter?")

[Roknrol]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I can't really help you much Science, I think, was the primary factor in my finally giving up on religion entirely.

Granted, religion wasn't making me happy, and while I thought that it made me fulfilled it was more like fauxfillment (tm pending) I guess...I was never satisfied, and I was never happy.

When I started discovering (really learning, not just gradeschool stuff) science, I found it easier and easier to answer science-y questions and understanding the answers than I ever did with any religion. For me, consistency was key, and I eventually gave up on the idea that anyone "out there" gives a shit/exists (either way, it works out the same for us down here).

[Dez]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

For me personally, there's a lot of Jungian psychology in how I practice.

We have complicated brains capable of grasping science, but there's a lot of complicated, irrational stuff going on...let's not even get started about whatever is in the basement. An archetype is a powerful thing...just ask any kid what Santa's temperament and character are. If an archetype can change the behavior and perspective of enough people, how is that not a form of existence? The ones that speak to me just might not have star billing power outside of a summer blockbuster

[Roknrol]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Well, we never pushed too hard on that stuff in our house, even when we were spiritual. I remember when my son was seven he walked right up to his mom and asked, "Is Santa real?" and my wife said, "Why? Did someone at school say something to you about it?". He said, "no, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense the things that he can supposedly do."

We came clean then and there and let him know why other kids should still be allowed to believe in Santa. To my knowledge he continued to respect that - he's currently a PaganAthiest or something and you'd have a hard time finding a more moral or ethical kid. He's smart, if lazy.

I guess when we raised him we tried to focus on the parts of the holiday that made the holiday so cool - or what was supposed to, anyway. Spending time with the family - we always cooked holiday meals together, we always played board games or did some other "family" activity...hell, we used to catch shows for holidays because it was more fun than staying at home and fighting with family (or using the rare extra day off for household chores).

I don't know if that qualifies as child abuse or not, I'm sure some would say so, but he seems to be a pretty happy 20 year old, far happier than his mother or myself were when we were his age. He has a great relationship with us - one that even if we had to kick him out due to unemployment he would be able to rationally "deal" with it and at the same time still be cool with family. He doesn't overreact to stupid shit very often...well rounded kid. A damn sight better than many of his generation.

Now. Why in the hell am I spending so much time defending my child rearing to you, who were not attacking me?

I have no idea :-/

For my son and I at least (his mother and he have different topics that interest them) we talk alot about science and politics. Sometimes religion comes up, but not often. We talk about TV shows and stuff too - but the really engaging topics are science and politics. By proxy, survivalism has kind of become a popular topic in our household, because we really don't think the current system can last. Seriously, look around you. Do it. Look around, there is no possible way that this can continue without zombies happening. I'm just saying.

[nbdy]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Well, we never pushed too hard on that stuff in our house, even when we were spiritual. I remember when my son was seven he walked right up to his mom and asked, "Is Santa real?" and my wife said, "Why? Did someone at school say something to you about it?". He said, "no, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense the things that he can supposedly do."

With all of these (santa, tooth fairy, easter bunny, etc.) we turned the question back onto the kids, "What do you think?" and let them work things out for themselves. I was also known to jokingly assert, "I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of _____."

[Roknrol]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

We did that for the most part when he was growing up, but there's a big difference between a casual question and, "Hey, does _____ exist?" We tried to give him both worlds...not sure how well we did

[Threshold]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

My take on it is that evolution saw fit to give me a brain function I call spirituality to help me address certain things in life.

So I practice a religion which brings satisfaction to me, calms me, delights me, is a framework to hang some of my baggage on. It makes my life better.

I also worked as a scientist and science educator for a long time.

And I like to hike, and cook, and chat on line with friends.

I have a lot of brain functions that address different needs and aspects of my life.

I am a pantheist, the Universe is the Ultimate Reality. I don't have any deities or mythology to try to make some sort of literal sense out of. But I have benefited from the tales and archetypes of those things that people of other faiths have shared with me.

I'd say to begin to practice a faith, and as you go along, things fall into place. Perhaps deities will communicate to you, or some insight will come that helps you grow in your spirit journey. Don't have to have it all sorted out and nailed in place.

glad to have you on board

[Ophidia]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I tell many people I'm a 'kitchen-sink Pagan'. Just because the water that comes out of my faucet has been cycled through hundreds of miles of kidneys & pipelines does not make it less sacred than the ocean. Just because I bought my dinner at the grocery store doesn't make it less sacred than a something I hunted and killed. Some folks make sacrifices of blood and meat (and I've done that) but now my sacrifice is adding my energy to the world through the work I perform, both at work-work and at home.

I know the science behind lightning, but when I watched it from my back yard last night, the touch of the Gods was still there - Chango, Zeus, Thor. Science doesn't rob the sacredness from every-day things, and religion doesn't rob the science from the brain chemistry of religion or love. I stand pretty much in awe of both worlds. When I found out the very first fax machine was invented in the 1800s, it blew my mind. Humans are freaking amazing - and that is Divine.

[KarrinMurphy]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Probably somebody's already said this, but the way I view Paganism is in such a way that it coincides with modern science, instead of fighting against it. I am an atheist, a psychology major, and a Pagan. Here's what I think:

I think of the universe and everything existing in it as a single All. Within that, there is the God and Goddess, who represent the feminine and masculine dichotomy. And within THAT, there are individual deities who represent specific traits. A god of war here, a goddess of love there. You get the idea.

My patron deity is Hestia. This is because the traits that she represents (domesticity and the home, caregiving and nurturing, etc.) are qualities that I admire, and also lack. When I call her, praise her, or bless my home in her name, what I'm literally doing is getting myself into a mindset wherein I can learn and grow in that particular area. I am calling the IDEA of domesticity to me, personified by Hestia.

It's basic psychology. You ever hear how you're supposed to do your homework in the same place every time, so that your mind becomes accustomed to it and shifts immediately into homework mode when you get to said place? Same deal.

Great, grand ideas like the entire universe are simply too complex for a human to understand. Breaking existence down into finite little areas via various gods and their personalities makes it simpler.

I don't know about your particular path, but at its base, my religion is nature. It's space and dirt and trees and wind and fire. It's becoming closer to my natural state than conventional, modern lifestyles will conveniently allow. As ahuman, it's hard to remember at times that we're all just animals. No better than the cow, or the frog. It puts my stupid "problems" into perspective, and allows me to feel empathy for those whom society tends to overlook, e.g other animals, plantlife, and humans less fortunate than myself. I realize I'm going off on a tangent, but hear me out.

Science makes me feel closer to my environment, andI think that's Pagan as hell. Tell me about black holes in space, and how to grow a flower, and why repetitive creative visualization creates neural pathways in the brain. Tell me everything-it's all a deeply religious experience for me, to know how my universe works.

When I call the elements, I call them for their associations. Fire when I'm in need of inner strength. Water, when I wish to be more caring and nurturing, and so on and so forth. I appreciate the triple goddess pantheon because it represents important stages of life, and that helps me to remember that my existence is not a long period of sameness, but a series of stages. I celebrate the holly and oak kings because they remind me that seasons change and the world continues to turn-even if I'm in Southern California and it feels like one big, endless, miserable summer.

I can't speak for hard polytheists, who believe in true to life gods who walk and talk. But for me, they don't need to sit down on my couch and ask for a cuppa for them to influence my life-even in a manner that's perfectly aligned with science.

[Thrudr]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I agree with KarrinMurphy. I combine religion with science. One is not more logic than the other, or so it feels for me. I love to learn about the mysteries unravelled by science. It teaches us a lot about all sorts of life on Earth and beyond our planet. And so does religion, but in another way. Religion has made it possible for me to see beyond the facts that science provides us. It makes it sacred.

We live in a culture where science and religion are being defined as opposites of each other. I think of it more as two pieces of a puzzle that fit in my life.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I'm in the camp that spiritual stuff, creatures, gods, magic and the sort. Are above sciences understanding, because science is such a practical fact based tool, an extremely useful one, but a limited one. It's like trying to find oil with a metal detector, you won't get any hits.

So for instance, in a thunder storm you can't look up and see Thor beating his anvil, 10 million satellites couldn't find Thor beating his anvil, an army of rogue aliens couldn't find Thor beating his anvil, but I believe (Being a hard polytheist) that the myth stands, and Thor is in fact, beating his anvil. I also believe all (old) gods and goddesses are real, so theres nothing stopping the african god of thunder from causing that thunder too.